5 ms·

Number one rule of hiring: take up references

by iand 15y ago

docgnome 15y ago
I'd think that would be an issue to. In this case the guy wasn't trying to deceive him really, but if he had been what good is a "reference" from some guys buddy at the "awesome sause corp"
ww520 15y ago
Does reference checking really work? People pick references that can put them in the best light. How would one phrase questions to get the true answers from references?
- iand 15y ago
  They do work but are not foolproof. I always ask to speak with the person's current manager. Its usually possible to discerne whether the manager is sorry to lose the employee or not.
  - joezydeco 15y ago
    When you say "current", you mean you talk to the manager that probably doesn't know his employee is interviewing for a new job? I bet that ends well.
  - mavelikara 15y ago
    How many times have you taken a call from someone who is doing a reference check on one of your current employees?
  - AppSec 15y ago
    Even though I never give references until an offer has been agreed to, I generally will not give my current manager for various reasons -- first it is just way too awkward.
- ams6110 15y ago
  If the candidate says he was a latex salesman for Vandelay Industries, that could be a red flag. Seriously... I've found that people in sales are so used to bullshitting their way to a deal that you have to double and triple check everything in their backgrounds.
- baddox 15y ago
  It's still difficult to get good references if you're not competent. Sure, some people might get friends to flat out lie and say they're a previous employer and give a glowing review. But how often will that really happen? More likely, people will pick real references that will give a good review, but you can still get good information from that reference (e.g. their responsibilities at the previous job, why they left, etc.).
FreakLegion 15y ago
Absolutely. My current employer never asked for references, and in fact, they didn't even get my full legal name until after they'd hired me (no background check, in other words). Luckily it's not an issue in my case, but even so, this is an InfoSec company. They really ought to be more careful, even with charming fellas like me!
rdl 15y ago
I'm curious how people feel about (criminal, credit) background checks. Our lawyers suggested that both those and drug tests are sometimes done, but might not be appropriate in silicon valley. We're pretty anti drug-tests, but especially for an infosec company or someone with access to sensitive customer data, running at least a criminal check and possibly credit check makes sense. I wouldn't say having previous convictions necessarily excludes someone, but refusing to disclose and being unable to explain something is probably a big problem.
- earl 15y ago
  I've turned down job offers over required background checks, for a variety of reasons. I could see how they would be appropriate if someone were involved in handling money or deals or some such, but for a plain dev, it's silly. I'd consider just a plain criminal background check, but for the rest of it, my credit is none of anybody's damn business. The demand to call all my previous employers and verify salaries is similarly horseshit -- my previous salaries don't matter a damn, all that matters is our agreement on what an employer is going to pay me. The weird thing is companies get indignant if you turn them down for this reason, and pissy when you characterize the demand for such a check as a lack of trust. Particularly since my previous 3 bosses are references. While I suppose someone could fake references, it's hard to do with linkedin, especially since someone doing a reference call to an arbitrary phone number could just ask for a verification email from corporate email.
  - rdl 15y ago
    I think the purpose with credit checks is to catch "irresponsible behavior", like a huge mountain of credit card debt, because it could make someone willing to steal. It never really made a whole lot of sense to me, since most people in the tech industry in debt got that way through a failed startup, or maybe a divorce, or medical expenses, or something like that; none of which makes you a less good candidate. Maybe a lot of charge-offs would be an issue for a CFO. My general philosophy on references is they only really count if they're strong mutually known parties; a random manager at IBM vouching for someone is pretty meaningless to me. The first circle is founders' personal contacts, then people introduced by their contacts, and people who are introduced by people known to early employees. That scales pretty far if you're hiring in a specific domain.

Number one rule of hiring: take up references

by iand 15y ago

Number one rule of hiring: take up references

I'd think that would be an issue to. In this case the guy wasn't trying to deceive him really, but if he had been what good is a "reference" from some guys buddy at the "awesome sause corp"

ww520 15y ago

Does reference checking really work? People pick references that can put them in the best light. How would one phrase questions to get the true answers from references?

iand 15y ago
They do work but are not foolproof. I always ask to speak with the person's current manager. Its usually possible to discerne whether the manager is sorry to lose the employee or not.
- joezydeco 15y ago
  When you say "current", you mean you talk to the manager that probably doesn't know his employee is interviewing for a new job? I bet that ends well.
- mavelikara 15y ago
  How many times have you taken a call from someone who is doing a reference check on one of your current employees?
- AppSec 15y ago
  Even though I never give references until an offer has been agreed to, I generally will not give my current manager for various reasons -- first it is just way too awkward.
ams6110 15y ago
If the candidate says he was a latex salesman for Vandelay Industries, that could be a red flag. Seriously... I've found that people in sales are so used to bullshitting their way to a deal that you have to double and triple check everything in their backgrounds.
baddox 15y ago
It's still difficult to get good references if you're not competent. Sure, some people might get friends to flat out lie and say they're a previous employer and give a glowing review. But how often will that really happen? More likely, people will pick real references that will give a good review, but you can still get good information from that reference (e.g. their responsibilities at the previous job, why they left, etc.).

FreakLegion 15y ago

Absolutely. My current employer never asked for references, and in fact, they didn't even get my full legal name until after they'd hired me (no background check, in other words). Luckily it's not an issue in my case, but even so, this is an InfoSec company. They really ought to be more careful, even with charming fellas like me!

rdl 15y ago

I'm curious how people feel about (criminal, credit) background checks. Our lawyers suggested that both those and drug tests are sometimes done, but might not be appropriate in silicon valley. We're pretty anti drug-tests, but especially for an infosec company or someone with access to sensitive customer data, running at least a criminal check and possibly credit check makes sense. I wouldn't say having previous convictions necessarily excludes someone, but refusing to disclose and being unable to explain something is probably a big problem.

earl 15y ago
I've turned down job offers over required background checks, for a variety of reasons. I could see how they would be appropriate if someone were involved in handling money or deals or some such, but for a plain dev, it's silly. I'd consider just a plain criminal background check, but for the rest of it, my credit is none of anybody's damn business. The demand to call all my previous employers and verify salaries is similarly horseshit -- my previous salaries don't matter a damn, all that matters is our agreement on what an employer is going to pay me. The weird thing is companies get indignant if you turn them down for this reason, and pissy when you characterize the demand for such a check as a lack of trust. Particularly since my previous 3 bosses are references. While I suppose someone could fake references, it's hard to do with linkedin, especially since someone doing a reference call to an arbitrary phone number could just ask for a verification email from corporate email.
- rdl 15y ago
  I think the purpose with credit checks is to catch "irresponsible behavior", like a huge mountain of credit card debt, because it could make someone willing to steal. It never really made a whole lot of sense to me, since most people in the tech industry in debt got that way through a failed startup, or maybe a divorce, or medical expenses, or something like that; none of which makes you a less good candidate. Maybe a lot of charge-offs would be an issue for a CFO. My general philosophy on references is they only really count if they're strong mutually known parties; a random manager at IBM vouching for someone is pretty meaningless to me. The first circle is founders' personal contacts, then people introduced by their contacts, and people who are introduced by people known to early employees. That scales pretty far if you're hiring in a specific domain.