4 ms·

I would not have guessed the name was French.

dotancohen 4y ago
French words should be written with an asterisk to designate that no matter how they're spelled, you have no idea how to pronounce it. I'm exaggerating of course, but I say that as someone reasonably fluent in four languages with four different alphabets.
- orwin 4y ago
  I think this is ironic writing this in English. In Portuguese, Deutsch or Italian, even Spanish why not, but in a language with like 10 diphthong and 5 triphthong, 15 ways to pronounce the letter 'a', that even native speaker can't really pronounce (at least Scotts and Irish, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same for blue collar English workers) should not be used to make fun of another idiotic language. At least we have the excuse that a conservative, non elected body is keeping our language difficult and dumb for conservative reasons.
  - ggm 4y ago
    Few native English speakers learn grammar formally these days. Partner is a retired proofreader and these last 20 years has killed her, watching teachers and lecturers fail to understand their mother tongue. Also, the Spanish equivalent of academie francais is at least talking about ending gender for inanimate objects I believe. In english, lack of a definitional body makes this very hard (actor/actress chairman &c, not having gendered inanimate objects makes it hard to find a direct equivalent)
  - dotancohen 4y ago
    > I think this is ironic writing this in English. Oh, definitely. French is worse than English, but both are bad. My two Right-to-Left languages are far easier to pronounce from reading.
    - clauderoux 4y ago
      Actually, since English borrowed many spelling convention from French, and then invented quite a few for itself, I find it quite ridiculous to say that French is worse than English. In French, pronunciations is usually not an issue, the rules are quite straightforward and quite regular, despite what you may think. Grammar is pretty complicated, but it is very very rare to have words in French for which people might wonder what is the actual pronunciation. Usually, the problem will only arise for words borrowed from a foreign language with a foreign spelling.
      - dotancohen 4y ago
        Thank you. French is not one of the languages that I speak, so from afar French spelling and pronunciation seems arbitrary. I appreciate the lesson!
- willyt 4y ago
  Yes, or a little superscript like ™ but fr for French, lt for latin, db for German, gr for Greek etc. then we would get some clues about what set of pronunciation rules we might be using when saying the word in English. Reading out written French and pronouncing it correctly is not that hard, it has pretty clear rules for which letters are pronounced and they are typically followed. English is all over the place, often the only way you can know how to say a word is if you've heard someone else you trust say it correctly. I'm not sure where this poem comes from, I think a frustrated diplomat wrote it in the 50's: Dearest creature in creation, Study English pronunciation. I will teach you in my verse Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse. I will keep you, Suzy, busy, Make your head with heat grow dizzy. Tear in eye, your dress will tear. So shall I! Oh hear my prayer. Just compare heart, beard, and heard, Dies and diet, lord and word, Sword and sward, retain and Britain. (Mind the latter, how it’s written.) Now I surely will not plague you With such words as plaque and ague. But be careful how you speak: Say break and steak, but bleak and streak; Cloven, oven, how and low, Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe. Hear me say, devoid of trickery, Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore, Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles, Exiles, similes, and reviles; Scholar, vicar, and cigar, Solar, mica, war and far; One, anemone, Balmoral, Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel; Gertrude, German, wind and mind, Scene, Melpomene, mankind. Billet does not rhyme with ballet, Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet. Blood and flood are not like food, Nor is mould like should and would. Viscous, viscount, load and broad, Toward, to forward, to reward. And your pronunciation’s OK When you correctly say croquet, Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve, Friend and fiend, alive and live. Ivy, privy, famous; clamour And enamour rhyme with hammer. River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb, Doll and roll and some and home. Stranger does not rhyme with anger, Neither does devour with clangour. Souls but foul, haunt but aunt, Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant, Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger, And then singer, ginger, linger, Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge, Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age. Query does not rhyme with very, Nor does fury sound like bury. Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth. Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath. Though the differences seem little, We say actual but victual. Refer does not rhyme with deafer. Foeffer does, and zephyr, heifer. Mint, pint, senate and sedate; Dull, bull, and George ate late. Scenic, Arabic, Pacific, Science, conscience, scientific. Liberty, library, heave and heaven, Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven. We say hallowed, but allowed, People, leopard, towed, but vowed. Mark the differences, moreover, Between mover, cover, clover; Leeches, breeches, wise, precise, Chalice, but police and lice; Camel, constable, unstable, Principle, disciple, label. Petal, panel, and canal, Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal. Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair, Senator, spectator, mayor. Tour, but our and succour, four. Gas, alas, and Arkansas. Sea, idea, Korea, area, Psalm, Maria, but malaria. Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean. Doctrine, turpentine, marine. Compare alien with Italian, Dandelion and battalion. Sally with ally, yea, ye, Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key. Say aver, but ever, fever, Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver. Heron, granary, canary. Crevice and device and aerie. Face, but preface, not efface. Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass. Large, but target, gin, give, verging, Ought, out, joust and scour, scourging. Ear, but earn and wear and tear Do not rhyme with here but ere. Seven is right, but so is even, Hyphen, roughen, nephew Stephen, Monkey, donkey, Turk and jerk, Ask, grasp, wasp, and cork and work. Pronunciation — think of Psyche! Is a paling stout and spikey? Won’t it make you lose your wits, Writing groats and saying grits? It’s a dark abyss or tunnel: Strewn with stones, stowed, solace, gunwale, Islington and Isle of Wight, Housewife, verdict and indict. Finally, which rhymes with enough — Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough? Hiccough has the sound of cup. My advice is to give up!!!
- spuz 4y ago
  As far as I know, the rules for pronouncing words in French are much more logical and regular than in English. The exceptions to the rules tend to be words borrowed from English. Can you give an example of two French words that use contradictory pronunciation rules? Here's an example in English: "cough" and "bough", or "wood" and "food".
  - jcranmer 4y ago
    The French word "est" (as in "Il est") is not pronounced the same as the French word "est" (as in "va à l'est"). There's definitely several cases of irregularity in French pronunciation ("clef" is another good one--usually you pronounce a final 'f' consonant, but not in that word!), and the consonant cluster "il" is so inconsistently pronounced that you might as well flip a coin to determine if it should be pronounced with an 'l' sound or a 'y' ('j' in IPA) sound.
    - spuz 4y ago
      "clef" is a good example, thanks! There certainly seem a lot fewer than in English though.
- twic 4y ago
  Or: 𝐹𝓇𝑒𝓈𝓃𝑒𝓁.

French words should be written with an asterisk to designate that no matter how they're spelled, you have no idea how to pronounce it. I'm exaggerating of course, but I say that as someone reasonably fluent in four languages with four different alphabets.

orwin 4y ago
I think this is ironic writing this in English. In Portuguese, Deutsch or Italian, even Spanish why not, but in a language with like 10 diphthong and 5 triphthong, 15 ways to pronounce the letter 'a', that even native speaker can't really pronounce (at least Scotts and Irish, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same for blue collar English workers) should not be used to make fun of another idiotic language. At least we have the excuse that a conservative, non elected body is keeping our language difficult and dumb for conservative reasons.
- ggm 4y ago
  Few native English speakers learn grammar formally these days. Partner is a retired proofreader and these last 20 years has killed her, watching teachers and lecturers fail to understand their mother tongue. Also, the Spanish equivalent of academie francais is at least talking about ending gender for inanimate objects I believe. In english, lack of a definitional body makes this very hard (actor/actress chairman &c, not having gendered inanimate objects makes it hard to find a direct equivalent)
- dotancohen 4y ago
  > I think this is ironic writing this in English. Oh, definitely. French is worse than English, but both are bad. My two Right-to-Left languages are far easier to pronounce from reading.
  - clauderoux 4y ago
    Actually, since English borrowed many spelling convention from French, and then invented quite a few for itself, I find it quite ridiculous to say that French is worse than English. In French, pronunciations is usually not an issue, the rules are quite straightforward and quite regular, despite what you may think. Grammar is pretty complicated, but it is very very rare to have words in French for which people might wonder what is the actual pronunciation. Usually, the problem will only arise for words borrowed from a foreign language with a foreign spelling.
    - dotancohen 4y ago
      Thank you. French is not one of the languages that I speak, so from afar French spelling and pronunciation seems arbitrary. I appreciate the lesson!
willyt 4y ago
Yes, or a little superscript like ™ but fr for French, lt for latin, db for German, gr for Greek etc. then we would get some clues about what set of pronunciation rules we might be using when saying the word in English. Reading out written French and pronouncing it correctly is not that hard, it has pretty clear rules for which letters are pronounced and they are typically followed. English is all over the place, often the only way you can know how to say a word is if you've heard someone else you trust say it correctly. I'm not sure where this poem comes from, I think a frustrated diplomat wrote it in the 50's: Dearest creature in creation, Study English pronunciation. I will teach you in my verse Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse. I will keep you, Suzy, busy, Make your head with heat grow dizzy. Tear in eye, your dress will tear. So shall I! Oh hear my prayer. Just compare heart, beard, and heard, Dies and diet, lord and word, Sword and sward, retain and Britain. (Mind the latter, how it’s written.) Now I surely will not plague you With such words as plaque and ague. But be careful how you speak: Say break and steak, but bleak and streak; Cloven, oven, how and low, Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe. Hear me say, devoid of trickery, Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore, Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles, Exiles, similes, and reviles; Scholar, vicar, and cigar, Solar, mica, war and far; One, anemone, Balmoral, Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel; Gertrude, German, wind and mind, Scene, Melpomene, mankind. Billet does not rhyme with ballet, Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet. Blood and flood are not like food, Nor is mould like should and would. Viscous, viscount, load and broad, Toward, to forward, to reward. And your pronunciation’s OK When you correctly say croquet, Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve, Friend and fiend, alive and live. Ivy, privy, famous; clamour And enamour rhyme with hammer. River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb, Doll and roll and some and home. Stranger does not rhyme with anger, Neither does devour with clangour. Souls but foul, haunt but aunt, Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant, Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger, And then singer, ginger, linger, Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge, Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age. Query does not rhyme with very, Nor does fury sound like bury. Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth. Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath. Though the differences seem little, We say actual but victual. Refer does not rhyme with deafer. Foeffer does, and zephyr, heifer. Mint, pint, senate and sedate; Dull, bull, and George ate late. Scenic, Arabic, Pacific, Science, conscience, scientific. Liberty, library, heave and heaven, Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven. We say hallowed, but allowed, People, leopard, towed, but vowed. Mark the differences, moreover, Between mover, cover, clover; Leeches, breeches, wise, precise, Chalice, but police and lice; Camel, constable, unstable, Principle, disciple, label. Petal, panel, and canal, Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal. Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair, Senator, spectator, mayor. Tour, but our and succour, four. Gas, alas, and Arkansas. Sea, idea, Korea, area, Psalm, Maria, but malaria. Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean. Doctrine, turpentine, marine. Compare alien with Italian, Dandelion and battalion. Sally with ally, yea, ye, Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key. Say aver, but ever, fever, Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver. Heron, granary, canary. Crevice and device and aerie. Face, but preface, not efface. Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass. Large, but target, gin, give, verging, Ought, out, joust and scour, scourging. Ear, but earn and wear and tear Do not rhyme with here but ere. Seven is right, but so is even, Hyphen, roughen, nephew Stephen, Monkey, donkey, Turk and jerk, Ask, grasp, wasp, and cork and work. Pronunciation — think of Psyche! Is a paling stout and spikey? Won’t it make you lose your wits, Writing groats and saying grits? It’s a dark abyss or tunnel: Strewn with stones, stowed, solace, gunwale, Islington and Isle of Wight, Housewife, verdict and indict. Finally, which rhymes with enough — Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough? Hiccough has the sound of cup. My advice is to give up!!!
spuz 4y ago
As far as I know, the rules for pronouncing words in French are much more logical and regular than in English. The exceptions to the rules tend to be words borrowed from English. Can you give an example of two French words that use contradictory pronunciation rules? Here's an example in English: "cough" and "bough", or "wood" and "food".
- jcranmer 4y ago
  The French word "est" (as in "Il est") is not pronounced the same as the French word "est" (as in "va à l'est"). There's definitely several cases of irregularity in French pronunciation ("clef" is another good one--usually you pronounce a final 'f' consonant, but not in that word!), and the consonant cluster "il" is so inconsistently pronounced that you might as well flip a coin to determine if it should be pronounced with an 'l' sound or a 'y' ('j' in IPA) sound.
  - spuz 4y ago
    "clef" is a good example, thanks! There certainly seem a lot fewer than in English though.
twic 4y ago
Or: 𝐹𝓇𝑒𝓈𝓃𝑒𝓁.