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"Electric cars" are sometimes powered by hydrogen fuel cells. https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2022/ https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2022/ Maybe this also helps lowe

"Electric cars" are sometimes powered by hydrogen fuel cells. https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2022/ https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2022/ Maybe this also helps lower quantities of "dead batteries", if hydrogen filling stations become prevalent?

danans 4y ago
> Does that partially address the "dead batteries", Sort of, but they still have batteries (though less). And now you have a hydrogen fuel cell disposal problem, and it's not clear to me whether that is better or worse, and if it's better, whether it is worth the greater complexity and inherent inefficiency of H2 production, whether it is grey H2 or green H2 > if hydrogen filling stations become prevalent? That's a big if considering that we already have an electric vehicle charging infrastructure and that can charge your vehicle in a zero carbon way in many places.
- _hypx 4y ago
  A hydrogen fuel cell is 100% recyclable. It is basically analogous to a catalytic converter.
  - danans 4y ago
    Batteries are also recyclable, and also have extended use cases after their use in cars and before they are recycled (mostly as distributed stationary grid storage).
    - _hypx 4y ago
      Not really. Li-ion batteries are very poorly recyclable. Not to mention it is rarely done right now.
      - danans 4y ago
        > Li-ion batteries are very poorly recyclable. 95% recyclable [1]. And there are 3 separate companies I know of working on it, Li-Cycle, Northvolt, and Redwood Materials. That article lists many more. 1. https://spectrum.ieee.org/amp/lithiumion-battery-recycling-finally-takes-off-in-north-america-and-europe-2652903758 https://spectrum.ieee.org/amp/lithiumion-battery-recycling-f...
        _hypx 4y ago
        That's the claim, not proven. In reality, very little batteries are recycled and we recover very little of the materials. https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/lithium-costs-a-lot-of-money-so-why-arent-we-recycling-lithium-batteries/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/lithium-costs-a-lot-...
MBCook 4y ago
“Electric cars” has come to pretty clearly refer to battery electric vehicles (BEV). Hydrogen fuel cell seems to be a failed dream, at least for normal people. I don’t know enough to know of it may be viable for fleet vehicles. But they tend to be known now as FCVs or FCEVs - Fuel Cell (Electric) Vehicles.
hedora 4y ago
I can imagine a world where most people buy a battery vehicle for around town trips. Charging at home is more convenient, and lower range models will be lighter / more sporty / cheaper / greener. For long trips, take a train (if in Europe / Asia / etc), or rent a hydrogen car.
speedgoose 4y ago
Electric cars with an hydrogen fuel cell are not competitive. They are more expensive, use more energy, and the hydrogen charging stations are also rare and more expensive to install and run.
- _hypx 4y ago
  A dated claim. They are the same price and not much more to run. In fact, at current gasoline/diesel prices, they are cheaper than conventional cars to run.
  - speedgoose 4y ago
    You need to compare against electric cars, not gas ones. The Toyota mirai is not extremely expensive but you can get much better cars for the money.
    - _hypx 4y ago
      That’s subjective. The Mirai refuels much faster and no EV at the same price has its range.
      - speedgoose 4y ago
        Though it’s almost useless for long trips because hydrogen pumps are very rare and often out of range.
        _hypx 4y ago
        That's more the fault of regulators not being serious about hydrogen infrastructure.
        josephcsible 4y ago
        It's really easy to install EV charging stations basically anywhere. Its's a major ordeal to install a hydrogen station.

danans 4y ago

> Does that partially address the "dead batteries", Sort of, but they still have batteries (though less). And now you have a hydrogen fuel cell disposal problem, and it's not clear to me whether that is better or worse, and if it's better, whether it is worth the greater complexity and inherent inefficiency of H2 production, whether it is grey H2 or green H2 > if hydrogen filling stations become prevalent? That's a big if considering that we already have an electric vehicle charging infrastructure and that can charge your vehicle in a zero carbon way in many places.

_hypx 4y ago
A hydrogen fuel cell is 100% recyclable. It is basically analogous to a catalytic converter.
- danans 4y ago
  Batteries are also recyclable, and also have extended use cases after their use in cars and before they are recycled (mostly as distributed stationary grid storage).
  - _hypx 4y ago
    Not really. Li-ion batteries are very poorly recyclable. Not to mention it is rarely done right now.
    - danans 4y ago
      > Li-ion batteries are very poorly recyclable. 95% recyclable [1]. And there are 3 separate companies I know of working on it, Li-Cycle, Northvolt, and Redwood Materials. That article lists many more. 1. https://spectrum.ieee.org/amp/lithiumion-battery-recycling-finally-takes-off-in-north-america-and-europe-2652903758 https://spectrum.ieee.org/amp/lithiumion-battery-recycling-f...
      - _hypx 4y ago
        That's the claim, not proven. In reality, very little batteries are recycled and we recover very little of the materials. https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/lithium-costs-a-lot-of-money-so-why-arent-we-recycling-lithium-batteries/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/lithium-costs-a-lot-...

MBCook 4y ago

“Electric cars” has come to pretty clearly refer to battery electric vehicles (BEV). Hydrogen fuel cell seems to be a failed dream, at least for normal people. I don’t know enough to know of it may be viable for fleet vehicles. But they tend to be known now as FCVs or FCEVs - Fuel Cell (Electric) Vehicles.

hedora 4y ago

I can imagine a world where most people buy a battery vehicle for around town trips. Charging at home is more convenient, and lower range models will be lighter / more sporty / cheaper / greener. For long trips, take a train (if in Europe / Asia / etc), or rent a hydrogen car.

speedgoose 4y ago

Electric cars with an hydrogen fuel cell are not competitive. They are more expensive, use more energy, and the hydrogen charging stations are also rare and more expensive to install and run.

_hypx 4y ago
A dated claim. They are the same price and not much more to run. In fact, at current gasoline/diesel prices, they are cheaper than conventional cars to run.
- speedgoose 4y ago
  You need to compare against electric cars, not gas ones. The Toyota mirai is not extremely expensive but you can get much better cars for the money.
  - _hypx 4y ago
    That’s subjective. The Mirai refuels much faster and no EV at the same price has its range.
    - speedgoose 4y ago
      Though it’s almost useless for long trips because hydrogen pumps are very rare and often out of range.
      - _hypx 4y ago
        That's more the fault of regulators not being serious about hydrogen infrastructure.
        josephcsible 4y ago
        It's really easy to install EV charging stations basically anywhere. Its's a major ordeal to install a hydrogen station.