6 ms·

https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/recyclewithus https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/recyclewithus. We can already recycle 95% of the metals in batteries, using 5% o

by rnk 4y ago

https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/recyclewithus https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/recyclewithus. We can already recycle 95% of the metals in batteries, using 5% of the energy it would take to go from raw materials to battery ready components. It's a non problem. Tesla is also recycling batteries, but their cars are only 10 years old and so they don't get many back (because the batteries are working pretty well after 10 years). Don't compare the terrible lifespan of leaf batteries with cars with decent battery management technology.

coryrc 4y ago
My nine-year-old Leaf's battery is also fine :)
- jjtheblunt 4y ago
  do you live somewhere never very hot?
  - madengr 4y ago
    I have 83% capacity on my Leaf at 7 years and 75k miles. I live in Kansas City where it typically ranges from 0F to 100F over the year.
    - Retric 4y ago
      Average monthly high temperature never goes above 90f in Kansas so while it gets a few extreme days a year it really doesn’t get hot for any significant period. https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/usa/kansas-city/climate https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/usa/kansas-city/climate The average monthly high temperatures in Las Vegas by comparison are 104f in July, 103f in Aug, and 100f in June. https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/usa/las-vegas/climate https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/usa/las-vegas/climate Critically for battery degradation high temperatures when in actual use get well above ambient temperature. So, if you avoid driving in the heat of the day things can look better than local climate suggests.
      - countvonbalzac 4y ago
        Kansas City (Missouri)
        Retric 4y ago
        Kansas City (Missouri) and Kansas City (Kansas) have are the eastern and western half of the same city, and therefore have essentially the same climate. Between the two states, Missouri actually has the largest portion of the city. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_metropolitan_area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_metropolitan_area
    - sircastor 4y ago
      I’m down to 8 bars recently on my 2012 Leaf, at just under 70k miles. I’m still extremely happy with the car, though I now work from home. I live in the Portland OR area, which has started to experience more extreme temperatures over the last decade
      - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
        > I live in the Portland OR area, which has started to experience more extreme temperatures over the last decade That 116 degree day last year... x_x I have central A/C and it couldn't keep up. It was 85 degrees in the house and it sucked. Can't imagine all the poor sods that didn't even have A/C. I probably would have just sat in the bath tub all day. And then last month when we had a 75 degree Thursday followed by snow on Monday... I just want some nice weather so I can take my new mountain bike to Gateway Green.
      - rnk 4y ago
        I'm glad it's working pretty well for you folks. The info on leafs was that charging with Chademo, higher power charging, was really hard on the batteries because they'd get hot and leafs don't have a battery management system. Do you think that was an unwarranted opinion? Maybe you didn't do that much?
        sircastor 4y ago
        Not very frequently. I’d say I charged with ChaDeMo 2-3 a month max, and only if I was really in need. The chargers aren’t very common to begin with, so I can’t imagine many people using them daily. For me it was a “drive into town, and back, and back in, and back” situation where I didn’t have the luxury of charging for hours at a time.
  - coryrc 4y ago
    Correct
kkfx 4y ago
It is because we can recycle, in theory, BUT it's economically untenable in practice, witch means that so far nobody really do it on scale, only some experiments and promises for the future AND if done on scale like we know so far, simply because we need to recover some elements for mere production needs, not environmental reasons, well... The outcome will be around 60k€ for a very small city-car with 20-30kWh battery. Something too much expensive for almost anyone. That's just one of the main issues. EVs would be very nice if they cost nearly the same of ICEs for similar distance ranges and target only retirees and teleworkers witch means some who do not/can not use a car every day and IF they own a small domestic p.v. so can wait a day to recharge from the Sun instead of the grid. Not more, so far. Honestly IMVHO in this scenario: - cities will only be able to offer public transportation GRID-CONNECTED (witch means rails/filobus), forbidding private transportation, just some inter-modal hubs for those who came from outside and working vehicles only (emergency services, plumbers, builders etc); - outside probably the cheapest and most effective option for private transport for both individuals and whole society will be via flying cars to cut distance effects and roads needs (with their regular hyper-expensive upkeep). A substantial revolution we already see possible but still too costly for too many [1] witch means in turn: ~90% or so of the people unable to travel autonomously anymore for mere practical economical reasons, concentrated in "developed-Asian-like" urban settlements and a wealthy 10% living a good life in large Rivieras... I really do not see, given the input, different possible outcomes for an all-EVs scenario and I'm curios how someone can prove the contrary. I still not have an EV simply because for my use case and their price they are too costly compared to classic diesel cars, but I do have a small p.v. with lithium storage: after an year of VERY LITTLE usage (minimum SOC if grid is operational 90% only if tomorrow meteo is good enough) I've already lost 1% of the total battery capacity, EVs since they get far more stress (accelerations AND sudden deceleration witch led to high ripple on battery side) will offer less endurance (mildly confirmed by some neighbors with moderately new Teslas and a Renault Zoe). Surely IF we will not being able to source diesel/petrol there are no other options, but that's a different story with a far larger impacts since from oil we get much more than fuels AND anything we get from oil&gas, from sweeteners/flavours to lubricants and plastics and fertilizers will be far more expensive if oil/gas is used only for them and so all that use them will be far more expensive as well... Not very optimist, so to speak... [1] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/02/uk-first-airport-electric-flying-cars/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/02/uk-first-airport-elec... https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/12/technology/flying-cars.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/12/technology/flying-cars.ht... http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20201111000877 http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20201111000877 https://tass.com/economy/1395363 https://tass.com/economy/1395363 ...
olivermarks 4y ago
Redwood materials is run by the co founder and former cto of Tesla, presumably formed to head off the point where if BEV volume manufacturing ever does take off at scale there is a fig leaf of 'recyclability'. BEVs are extremely heavy and rely on lightweight hard to recycle plastic and alloy body components to lighten kerb weight. Tires produce far more pollution than 'tailpipes' (BEVs just move the pollution somewhere else of course, they are wonderful for affluent cities). https://www.tiretechnologyinternational.com/news/regulations/pollution-from-tire-wear-1000-times-worse-than-exhaust-emissions.html https://www.tiretechnologyinternational.com/news/regulations... The other worrying aspect of BEV battery module recycling is fire risk- as the current generation of BEVs age we can expect to see more trapped energy thermal runaway events from faulty batteries. I'd say we have a way to go solving these realities before increasing BEV volume manufacture - hybrid cars are the best solution IMO for the foreseeable future especially given the perilous state of western world electric grid reliability
- zamfi 4y ago
  Ironically, this post recycles a bunch of tired old yarns about BEVs. I'm sure early ICEs were a disaster too, yet here we are. > fig leaf of 'recyclability' It's not a fig leaf if it's 95% recyclable for profit? > Tires produce far more pollution than 'tailpipes' (BEVs just move the pollution somewhere else of course, they are wonderful for affluent cities). ICEs have tires too? And BEVs -- even those powered by coal, will clean up as the grid cleans up. ICEs will never clean up. > as the current generation of BEVs age we can expect to see more trapped energy thermal runaway events from faulty batteries It's been a decade. We see very little of this. > hybrid cars are the best solution IMO The complaints you list are non-issues or already solved. Hybrid cars also have batteries and many also plug in and so would be subject to exactly the same complaints you list.
  - olivermarks 4y ago
    > The 'complaints' you list are non-issues or already solved. https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/dec/08/the-curse-of-white-oil-electric-vehicles-dirty-secret-lithium https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/dec/08/the-curse-of-wh... The curse of 'white oil': electric vehicles' dirty secret https://electrek.co/2022/03/21/heres-what-the-future-of-battery-recycling-is-going-to-look-like-for-ev-owners/ https://electrek.co/2022/03/21/heres-what-the-future-of-batt... 'EV batteries have a 10–13 year lifespan, so while they may not be ready to be recycled in large volumes just yet, we know they’re on the way. Companies worldwide are already investing in recycling plants to meet this demand. From our perspective, the biggest hurdle is figuring out how to create a system of shared collections across multiple original equipment manufacturers and recyclers for both cost and environmental efficiencies.' Lithium-Ion Battery Fires in Electric Vehicles - Safety Risks to Emergency Responders https://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k https://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k We are just beginning to grapple with some of the core issues should the BEV political sales onslaught and incentives succeed. This BEV bus blowing up in RATP Paris this month should give you some pause for thought, fortunately it wasn't full of people https://youtu.be/5r-yN8SugWM https://youtu.be/5r-yN8SugWM Multiple buses burnt as a result of a charging fire in Germany https://www.sustainable-bus.com/electric-bus/sbb-stuttgart-fire-electric-bus-depot/ https://www.sustainable-bus.com/electric-bus/sbb-stuttgart-f...

by rnk 4y ago

coryrc 4y ago

My nine-year-old Leaf's battery is also fine :)

jjtheblunt 4y ago
do you live somewhere never very hot?
- madengr 4y ago
  I have 83% capacity on my Leaf at 7 years and 75k miles. I live in Kansas City where it typically ranges from 0F to 100F over the year.
  - Retric 4y ago
    Average monthly high temperature never goes above 90f in Kansas so while it gets a few extreme days a year it really doesn’t get hot for any significant period. https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/usa/kansas-city/climate https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/usa/kansas-city/climate The average monthly high temperatures in Las Vegas by comparison are 104f in July, 103f in Aug, and 100f in June. https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/usa/las-vegas/climate https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/usa/las-vegas/climate Critically for battery degradation high temperatures when in actual use get well above ambient temperature. So, if you avoid driving in the heat of the day things can look better than local climate suggests.
    - countvonbalzac 4y ago
      Kansas City (Missouri)
      - Retric 4y ago
        Kansas City (Missouri) and Kansas City (Kansas) have are the eastern and western half of the same city, and therefore have essentially the same climate. Between the two states, Missouri actually has the largest portion of the city. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_metropolitan_area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_metropolitan_area
  - sircastor 4y ago
    I’m down to 8 bars recently on my 2012 Leaf, at just under 70k miles. I’m still extremely happy with the car, though I now work from home. I live in the Portland OR area, which has started to experience more extreme temperatures over the last decade
    - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
      > I live in the Portland OR area, which has started to experience more extreme temperatures over the last decade That 116 degree day last year... x_x I have central A/C and it couldn't keep up. It was 85 degrees in the house and it sucked. Can't imagine all the poor sods that didn't even have A/C. I probably would have just sat in the bath tub all day. And then last month when we had a 75 degree Thursday followed by snow on Monday... I just want some nice weather so I can take my new mountain bike to Gateway Green.
    - rnk 4y ago
      I'm glad it's working pretty well for you folks. The info on leafs was that charging with Chademo, higher power charging, was really hard on the batteries because they'd get hot and leafs don't have a battery management system. Do you think that was an unwarranted opinion? Maybe you didn't do that much?
      - sircastor 4y ago
        Not very frequently. I’d say I charged with ChaDeMo 2-3 a month max, and only if I was really in need. The chargers aren’t very common to begin with, so I can’t imagine many people using them daily. For me it was a “drive into town, and back, and back in, and back” situation where I didn’t have the luxury of charging for hours at a time.
- coryrc 4y ago
  Correct

kkfx 4y ago

It is because we can recycle, in theory, BUT it's economically untenable in practice, witch means that so far nobody really do it on scale, only some experiments and promises for the future AND if done on scale like we know so far, simply because we need to recover some elements for mere production needs, not environmental reasons, well... The outcome will be around 60k€ for a very small city-car with 20-30kWh battery. Something too much expensive for almost anyone. That's just one of the main issues. EVs would be very nice if they cost nearly the same of ICEs for similar distance ranges and target only retirees and teleworkers witch means some who do not/can not use a car every day and IF they own a small domestic p.v. so can wait a day to recharge from the Sun instead of the grid. Not more, so far. Honestly IMVHO in this scenario: - cities will only be able to offer public transportation GRID-CONNECTED (witch means rails/filobus), forbidding private transportation, just some inter-modal hubs for those who came from outside and working vehicles only (emergency services, plumbers, builders etc); - outside probably the cheapest and most effective option for private transport for both individuals and whole society will be via flying cars to cut distance effects and roads needs (with their regular hyper-expensive upkeep). A substantial revolution we already see possible but still too costly for too many [1] witch means in turn: ~90% or so of the people unable to travel autonomously anymore for mere practical economical reasons, concentrated in "developed-Asian-like" urban settlements and a wealthy 10% living a good life in large Rivieras... I really do not see, given the input, different possible outcomes for an all-EVs scenario and I'm curios how someone can prove the contrary. I still not have an EV simply because for my use case and their price they are too costly compared to classic diesel cars, but I do have a small p.v. with lithium storage: after an year of VERY LITTLE usage (minimum SOC if grid is operational 90% only if tomorrow meteo is good enough) I've already lost 1% of the total battery capacity, EVs since they get far more stress (accelerations AND sudden deceleration witch led to high ripple on battery side) will offer less endurance (mildly confirmed by some neighbors with moderately new Teslas and a Renault Zoe). Surely IF we will not being able to source diesel/petrol there are no other options, but that's a different story with a far larger impacts since from oil we get much more than fuels AND anything we get from oil&gas, from sweeteners/flavours to lubricants and plastics and fertilizers will be far more expensive if oil/gas is used only for them and so all that use them will be far more expensive as well... Not very optimist, so to speak... [1] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/02/uk-first-airport-electric-flying-cars/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/02/uk-first-airport-elec... https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/12/technology/flying-cars.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/12/technology/flying-cars.ht... http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20201111000877 http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20201111000877 https://tass.com/economy/1395363 https://tass.com/economy/1395363 ...

olivermarks 4y ago

Redwood materials is run by the co founder and former cto of Tesla, presumably formed to head off the point where if BEV volume manufacturing ever does take off at scale there is a fig leaf of 'recyclability'. BEVs are extremely heavy and rely on lightweight hard to recycle plastic and alloy body components to lighten kerb weight. Tires produce far more pollution than 'tailpipes' (BEVs just move the pollution somewhere else of course, they are wonderful for affluent cities). https://www.tiretechnologyinternational.com/news/regulations/pollution-from-tire-wear-1000-times-worse-than-exhaust-emissions.html https://www.tiretechnologyinternational.com/news/regulations... The other worrying aspect of BEV battery module recycling is fire risk- as the current generation of BEVs age we can expect to see more trapped energy thermal runaway events from faulty batteries. I'd say we have a way to go solving these realities before increasing BEV volume manufacture - hybrid cars are the best solution IMO for the foreseeable future especially given the perilous state of western world electric grid reliability

zamfi 4y ago
Ironically, this post recycles a bunch of tired old yarns about BEVs. I'm sure early ICEs were a disaster too, yet here we are. > fig leaf of 'recyclability' It's not a fig leaf if it's 95% recyclable for profit? > Tires produce far more pollution than 'tailpipes' (BEVs just move the pollution somewhere else of course, they are wonderful for affluent cities). ICEs have tires too? And BEVs -- even those powered by coal, will clean up as the grid cleans up. ICEs will never clean up. > as the current generation of BEVs age we can expect to see more trapped energy thermal runaway events from faulty batteries It's been a decade. We see very little of this. > hybrid cars are the best solution IMO The complaints you list are non-issues or already solved. Hybrid cars also have batteries and many also plug in and so would be subject to exactly the same complaints you list.
- olivermarks 4y ago
  > The 'complaints' you list are non-issues or already solved. https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/dec/08/the-curse-of-white-oil-electric-vehicles-dirty-secret-lithium https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/dec/08/the-curse-of-wh... The curse of 'white oil': electric vehicles' dirty secret https://electrek.co/2022/03/21/heres-what-the-future-of-battery-recycling-is-going-to-look-like-for-ev-owners/ https://electrek.co/2022/03/21/heres-what-the-future-of-batt... 'EV batteries have a 10–13 year lifespan, so while they may not be ready to be recycled in large volumes just yet, we know they’re on the way. Companies worldwide are already investing in recycling plants to meet this demand. From our perspective, the biggest hurdle is figuring out how to create a system of shared collections across multiple original equipment manufacturers and recyclers for both cost and environmental efficiencies.' Lithium-Ion Battery Fires in Electric Vehicles - Safety Risks to Emergency Responders https://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k https://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k We are just beginning to grapple with some of the core issues should the BEV political sales onslaught and incentives succeed. This BEV bus blowing up in RATP Paris this month should give you some pause for thought, fortunately it wasn't full of people https://youtu.be/5r-yN8SugWM https://youtu.be/5r-yN8SugWM Multiple buses burnt as a result of a charging fire in Germany https://www.sustainable-bus.com/electric-bus/sbb-stuttgart-fire-electric-bus-depot/ https://www.sustainable-bus.com/electric-bus/sbb-stuttgart-f...