10 ms·

Maybe relevant: the Netherlands is probably the country with the highest use of bicycles for transport, yet no one, except for cyclists on racing bikes/MTBs or

by y7 4y ago

Maybe relevant: the Netherlands is probably the country with the highest use of bicycles for transport, yet no one, except for cyclists on racing bikes/MTBs or foreign tourists, ever wears a bike helmet. This is because they're only marginally effective at preventing injury, and the disadvantage of reduced cycling use if helmets are mandated results in far worse public health outcomes. See also https://dutchreview.com/culture/cycling/5-reasons-why-the-dutch-cycle-without-bike-helmets/ https://dutchreview.com/culture/cycling/5-reasons-why-the-du...

stefan_ 4y ago
Hey now, don't bring reason here. We reject effective technology to stop speeding, phone use, distracted driving and regulations to make cars and trucks have no more than necessary power, weight and effective sightlines but since cyclists wear a styrofoam hat they are safe. Except those pedestrians are dying at an accelerated rate, I think they should get a helmet too. The response here are hilarious, like "they also have better infrastructure" - wow, you are soo close to getting it!
- breakfastduck 4y ago
  It's not reasonable and it's not relevant to point that lack of helmet use out. 1. The road infra is entirely structured around making it safer for cyclists in NE 2. They don't BAN the use of helmets. That study is NOT a justification to BAN them. 3. No one is suggesting that they be mandated either.
isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
There is a HUGE difference between NOT REQUIRING helmets and PROHIBITING helmets.
wasmitnetzen 4y ago
To me, that seems like a clear difference in infrastructure. If a biker shares a stretch of asphalt with a car, that's a risk for the biker and they need a helmet. In the Netherlands, this is widely understood and bikes get their own infrastructure everywhere. Only then you don't need helmets anymore at all.
- foolfoolz 4y ago
  while there is a lot, bikes do not get their own infrastructure everywhere. most likely the street you live on has no bike path. many city streets have bike lanes but not separated from the road i bet the more useful metrics are length of trip, average speed of the cars around you, and if you need to cross stop signs/intersections. dutch bike trips are often very short and the speed limits are low. you do not share the road with 35mph+ traffic as is common in america. intersections are the place where people get hurt on bikes the most and it’s more likely in american biking you will cross them. this one is where the separate infrastructure really comes in to play
- stfp 4y ago
  One flaw in this logic: helmets don't protect against cars ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - alephxyz 4y ago
    Maybe not if a car hits you head on, but if a car cuts you off or clips one of your wheels a helmet will be useful.
    - nerdponx 4y ago
      A bike helmet has literally saved my life in multiple such occasions.
      - watwut 4y ago
        nerdponx 4y ago
        Yes, riding a bike in New York City traffic is generally dangerous. I fixed it by moving out of New York City. Except for the time on a quiet suburban street when my drivetrain inexplicably locked up (never figured out what actually happened) and threw me over the handlebars, or the time when there wasn't much traffic around but there was some slippery garbage truck sludge exudate that I didn't see, which I wiped out on. My helmet saved me in both of those situations too. It turns out that shit happens in general no matter who or where you are, and that dressing for safety actually does keep you safe. An inflated sense of ability to protect oneself does not amount to protection in the event of a crash.
alpaca128 4y ago
The Netherlands probably also have some of the safest roads for cyclists. Nonetheless I recommend to always wear gloves when riding a bike. They weigh nothing, fit in every bag/pocket and if you ever crash you'll be glad you wore them. Hands are very likely to get injured in an accident and it's not fun to not use them for a couple of days.
jdr23bc 4y ago
No doubt Pedal Me contractors operating in Dutch cities might choose to not wear a helmet. That'd be fine. But that choice should be left to the contractor, not the company.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
  It's worse, they are not contractors but employees. The company should have a book thrown at them.
Etheryte 4y ago
This completely misses the forest for the trees and misattributes causality. The Dutch don't wear helmets because the traffic culture and infrastructure are completely different, not because of some questionable statistic no one has heard of. In the Netherlands you feel safe as a cyclist. Drivers look out for you because they're also all cyclists at other times. Cycling is so prevalent that it's hard to explain to anyone who hasn't experienced it.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  There are also significant legal penalties for being at-fault and injuring/killing a cyclist in the Netherlands as compared to the US.
  - ascar 4y ago
    Can you elaborate? The US has such a high incarceration rate for in European eyes often benign offenses that I find that statement hard to believe even though I don't know the Dutch laws (I'm German). E.g. I can't imagine a Dutch person being incarcerated for injuring a cyclist unless it's on alcohol/drugs. I can totally imagine that for the US though. But I might be totally wrong. Would be really curious for some details. My opinion on this might also be heavily and incorrectly influenced by popular media sprinkled with a few factual statistics that reinforce the bias.
    - Etheryte 4y ago
      When we lived in the Netherlands, my wife rode her bike infront of a car at an unmarked crossing where the car had every right of way. The car driver sued for repair fees, but in the end, the car driver had to pay her compensation instead. It doesn't matter that he had right of way, he was the "stronger" side and hurt someone weaker by not being cautious enough. There's obviously more nuance to the laws there, but this is a good example of the common mentality.
      - trgn 4y ago
        I love the distinction between stronger and weaker road users. With more power comes more responsibility, put into practice.
AndyMcConachie 4y ago
Read what the Dutch cycling union has to say about helmets. https://www.fietsersbond.nl/de-fiets/accessoires/fietshelmen/waarom-de-fietsersbond-tegen-een-helmplicht-is/ https://www.fietsersbond.nl/de-fiets/accessoires/fietshelmen... https://www-fietsersbond-nl.translate.goog/de-fiets/accessoires/fietshelmen/waarom-de-fietsersbond-tegen-een-helmplicht-is/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-fietsersbond-nl.translate.goog/de-fiets/accessoi... I live here and I'll say that almost all bicycle delivery drivers where helmets in NL. Lost of riders wear helmets here, but I agree that most people just riding to work or going shopping do not. I will also note that probably the largest bicycle delivery service in NL has helmets for sale for its riders. https://shop.thuisbezorgd.nl/nl/helmen https://shop.thuisbezorgd.nl/nl/helmen
- amscanne 4y ago
  That page is about the idea of helmet mandates, not about the safety of an individual decision to wear one. I think people most on the thread understand that there are negative consequences to mandates. The question is about whether you as a rational individual should choose to wear one. I think the answer to that is an irrefutable yes, if you want to reduce your risk of catastrophic head injury. But that doesn’t mean it should be mandated. We take calculated risks all the time, and the law can’t know all the variables and circumstances for each person at each moment. The mandate is ineffective because the most important safety factor for bicycles is frequency of cycling — the more bikes there are on the road, the more everyone is aware of them. But if you still had all those cyclists and put helmets on them, they would be slightly safer.
staticman2 4y ago
If you ever visit Amsterdam you'll see there are hardly any cars on the road and those that are have to drive at something like 5 miles an hour to avoid all the pedestrians and bicycles. It's nothing like riding a bike in the U. S.
cush 4y ago
I'd bet a Dutch cyclist would wear a helmet when riding on American roads, with American drivers in American cars.
- jules 4y ago
  As a Dutch cyclist I would certainly use a helmet on American roads (or not use a bicycle at all). Furthermore, in the Netherlands the delivery drivers that use bicycles are asked to wear a helmet by their employer. Riders of E-bikes that are able to accelerate without pedalling and those that are able to accelerate above 25 km/h are required to wear a helmet by law. I'm certain that the majority of the Dutch would think it is completely insane that a delivery company is prohibiting the use of helmets on their E-bikes, even if it was in the Netherlands.
- iruoy 4y ago
  I am a Dutch cyclist and almost got a ticket for not wearing a helmet while under 18 (I was 16 or 17) in San Francisco. The policewoman was nice, though, and let me go. Keeping in mind that American drivers aren't used to cyclists, it wasn't that bad in my (minimal) experience. But, of course, bikes are a little more prevalent there so that this experience won't stretch too far land inwards.
skeeter2020 4y ago
The Dutch don't actively prohibt you from wearing a helmet though...
DeWilde 4y ago
The Dutch have separate lanes for bicycles and a lot bicycle traffic goes through areas where cars don't even go.
kevinpet 4y ago
Helmets, even the light helmets bicyclist wear, are very effective at reducing the severity of head injuries. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24686160/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24686160/ That isn't to say that a policy of requiring helmets is good on net (because people may ride less), but in any accident that you hit your head, you would greatly benefit from wean a helmet.
- Drunk_Engineer 4y ago
  This is junk science. The authors simply did the ANSI drop-test in a lab test. In the real-world, 99% of bike crashes with death/severe injury are the result of car-crashes -- which the ANSI drop-test does not model correctly at all.
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    It's usually a junk comment to call something junk science.
    - Drunk_Engineer 4y ago
      They are claiming 90% risk reduction based on a laboratory model. That model obviously does not track with reality (show me any country where bike helmets reduced death/injury by that amount). If a model does not correlate with the real world, then it is by definition...junk.
TheRealPomax 4y ago
They're marginally effective on Dutch roads, which were overhauled to be cyclist-safe decades ago, with new roads being safe by default. The Dutch approach unfortunately does not reflect even remotely on North American cities. You need a helmet, because stroads[1] guarantee accidents. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORzNZUeUHAM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORzNZUeUHAM

by y7 4y ago

stefan_ 4y ago

Hey now, don't bring reason here. We reject effective technology to stop speeding, phone use, distracted driving and regulations to make cars and trucks have no more than necessary power, weight and effective sightlines but since cyclists wear a styrofoam hat they are safe. Except those pedestrians are dying at an accelerated rate, I think they should get a helmet too. The response here are hilarious, like "they also have better infrastructure" - wow, you are soo close to getting it!

breakfastduck 4y ago
It's not reasonable and it's not relevant to point that lack of helmet use out. 1. The road infra is entirely structured around making it safer for cyclists in NE 2. They don't BAN the use of helmets. That study is NOT a justification to BAN them. 3. No one is suggesting that they be mandated either.

isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago

There is a HUGE difference between NOT REQUIRING helmets and PROHIBITING helmets.

wasmitnetzen 4y ago

To me, that seems like a clear difference in infrastructure. If a biker shares a stretch of asphalt with a car, that's a risk for the biker and they need a helmet. In the Netherlands, this is widely understood and bikes get their own infrastructure everywhere. Only then you don't need helmets anymore at all.

foolfoolz 4y ago
while there is a lot, bikes do not get their own infrastructure everywhere. most likely the street you live on has no bike path. many city streets have bike lanes but not separated from the road i bet the more useful metrics are length of trip, average speed of the cars around you, and if you need to cross stop signs/intersections. dutch bike trips are often very short and the speed limits are low. you do not share the road with 35mph+ traffic as is common in america. intersections are the place where people get hurt on bikes the most and it’s more likely in american biking you will cross them. this one is where the separate infrastructure really comes in to play
stfp 4y ago
One flaw in this logic: helmets don't protect against cars ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- alephxyz 4y ago
  Maybe not if a car hits you head on, but if a car cuts you off or clips one of your wheels a helmet will be useful.
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    A bike helmet has literally saved my life in multiple such occasions.
    - watwut 4y ago
      - nerdponx 4y ago
        Yes, riding a bike in New York City traffic is generally dangerous. I fixed it by moving out of New York City. Except for the time on a quiet suburban street when my drivetrain inexplicably locked up (never figured out what actually happened) and threw me over the handlebars, or the time when there wasn't much traffic around but there was some slippery garbage truck sludge exudate that I didn't see, which I wiped out on. My helmet saved me in both of those situations too. It turns out that shit happens in general no matter who or where you are, and that dressing for safety actually does keep you safe. An inflated sense of ability to protect oneself does not amount to protection in the event of a crash.

alpaca128 4y ago

The Netherlands probably also have some of the safest roads for cyclists. Nonetheless I recommend to always wear gloves when riding a bike. They weigh nothing, fit in every bag/pocket and if you ever crash you'll be glad you wore them. Hands are very likely to get injured in an accident and it's not fun to not use them for a couple of days.

jdr23bc 4y ago

No doubt Pedal Me contractors operating in Dutch cities might choose to not wear a helmet. That'd be fine. But that choice should be left to the contractor, not the company.

isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
It's worse, they are not contractors but employees. The company should have a book thrown at them.

Etheryte 4y ago

This completely misses the forest for the trees and misattributes causality. The Dutch don't wear helmets because the traffic culture and infrastructure are completely different, not because of some questionable statistic no one has heard of. In the Netherlands you feel safe as a cyclist. Drivers look out for you because they're also all cyclists at other times. Cycling is so prevalent that it's hard to explain to anyone who hasn't experienced it.

sokoloff 4y ago
There are also significant legal penalties for being at-fault and injuring/killing a cyclist in the Netherlands as compared to the US.
- ascar 4y ago
  Can you elaborate? The US has such a high incarceration rate for in European eyes often benign offenses that I find that statement hard to believe even though I don't know the Dutch laws (I'm German). E.g. I can't imagine a Dutch person being incarcerated for injuring a cyclist unless it's on alcohol/drugs. I can totally imagine that for the US though. But I might be totally wrong. Would be really curious for some details. My opinion on this might also be heavily and incorrectly influenced by popular media sprinkled with a few factual statistics that reinforce the bias.
  - Etheryte 4y ago
    When we lived in the Netherlands, my wife rode her bike infront of a car at an unmarked crossing where the car had every right of way. The car driver sued for repair fees, but in the end, the car driver had to pay her compensation instead. It doesn't matter that he had right of way, he was the "stronger" side and hurt someone weaker by not being cautious enough. There's obviously more nuance to the laws there, but this is a good example of the common mentality.
    - trgn 4y ago
      I love the distinction between stronger and weaker road users. With more power comes more responsibility, put into practice.

AndyMcConachie 4y ago

Read what the Dutch cycling union has to say about helmets. https://www.fietsersbond.nl/de-fiets/accessoires/fietshelmen/waarom-de-fietsersbond-tegen-een-helmplicht-is/ https://www.fietsersbond.nl/de-fiets/accessoires/fietshelmen... https://www-fietsersbond-nl.translate.goog/de-fiets/accessoires/fietshelmen/waarom-de-fietsersbond-tegen-een-helmplicht-is/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-fietsersbond-nl.translate.goog/de-fiets/accessoi... I live here and I'll say that almost all bicycle delivery drivers where helmets in NL. Lost of riders wear helmets here, but I agree that most people just riding to work or going shopping do not. I will also note that probably the largest bicycle delivery service in NL has helmets for sale for its riders. https://shop.thuisbezorgd.nl/nl/helmen https://shop.thuisbezorgd.nl/nl/helmen

amscanne 4y ago
That page is about the idea of helmet mandates, not about the safety of an individual decision to wear one. I think people most on the thread understand that there are negative consequences to mandates. The question is about whether you as a rational individual should choose to wear one. I think the answer to that is an irrefutable yes, if you want to reduce your risk of catastrophic head injury. But that doesn’t mean it should be mandated. We take calculated risks all the time, and the law can’t know all the variables and circumstances for each person at each moment. The mandate is ineffective because the most important safety factor for bicycles is frequency of cycling — the more bikes there are on the road, the more everyone is aware of them. But if you still had all those cyclists and put helmets on them, they would be slightly safer.

staticman2 4y ago

If you ever visit Amsterdam you'll see there are hardly any cars on the road and those that are have to drive at something like 5 miles an hour to avoid all the pedestrians and bicycles. It's nothing like riding a bike in the U. S.

cush 4y ago

I'd bet a Dutch cyclist would wear a helmet when riding on American roads, with American drivers in American cars.

jules 4y ago
As a Dutch cyclist I would certainly use a helmet on American roads (or not use a bicycle at all). Furthermore, in the Netherlands the delivery drivers that use bicycles are asked to wear a helmet by their employer. Riders of E-bikes that are able to accelerate without pedalling and those that are able to accelerate above 25 km/h are required to wear a helmet by law. I'm certain that the majority of the Dutch would think it is completely insane that a delivery company is prohibiting the use of helmets on their E-bikes, even if it was in the Netherlands.
iruoy 4y ago
I am a Dutch cyclist and almost got a ticket for not wearing a helmet while under 18 (I was 16 or 17) in San Francisco. The policewoman was nice, though, and let me go. Keeping in mind that American drivers aren't used to cyclists, it wasn't that bad in my (minimal) experience. But, of course, bikes are a little more prevalent there so that this experience won't stretch too far land inwards.

skeeter2020 4y ago

The Dutch don't actively prohibt you from wearing a helmet though...

DeWilde 4y ago

The Dutch have separate lanes for bicycles and a lot bicycle traffic goes through areas where cars don't even go.

kevinpet 4y ago

Helmets, even the light helmets bicyclist wear, are very effective at reducing the severity of head injuries. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24686160/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24686160/ That isn't to say that a policy of requiring helmets is good on net (because people may ride less), but in any accident that you hit your head, you would greatly benefit from wean a helmet.

Drunk_Engineer 4y ago
This is junk science. The authors simply did the ANSI drop-test in a lab test. In the real-world, 99% of bike crashes with death/severe injury are the result of car-crashes -- which the ANSI drop-test does not model correctly at all.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  It's usually a junk comment to call something junk science.
  - Drunk_Engineer 4y ago
    They are claiming 90% risk reduction based on a laboratory model. That model obviously does not track with reality (show me any country where bike helmets reduced death/injury by that amount). If a model does not correlate with the real world, then it is by definition...junk.

TheRealPomax 4y ago

They're marginally effective on Dutch roads, which were overhauled to be cyclist-safe decades ago, with new roads being safe by default. The Dutch approach unfortunately does not reflect even remotely on North American cities. You need a helmet, because stroads[1] guarantee accidents. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORzNZUeUHAM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORzNZUeUHAM