13 ms·

Managers complaining about "not enough x" mean "I'm not willing to pay the market rate for x". Like, its a free market, up your price... or do you think basic e

Managers complaining about "not enough x" mean "I'm not willing to pay the market rate for x". Like, its a free market, up your price... or do you think basic economics don't apply to labor too? I'm surprised this article doesn't examine why companies aren't upping their pay.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
paulpauper 4y ago
they are not upping pay, because it's not profitable. to pay ppl enough $ to entice them to do carpentry is not profitable, hence so few of them. I remember climbing a 4,000 ft mountain in a day in the hot sun..you could not pay me enough $ to ever want to do that again, and even if you could, it would never be profitable. That's why things are airlifted.
- rdtwo 4y ago
  Yeah but carpentry has to be done and is getting done. It’s not so expensive you stop the job and wait for a lower price. My guess is you just use other unskilled labor and go for good enough. Maybe a true skilled carpenter isn’t worth the premium or the value isn’t clear to the buyer
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    The way it works is you have a subcontractor pay an immigrant under the table and get it done. The US clamped down on Mexican border crossings. Guess what? There’s no labor. Who would have thunk it.
    - cudgy 4y ago
      This along with the cyclical nature of the housing industry are definite negatives for carpentry as a long-term career for citizens in the US. The fact that the article doesn’t mention the under the table nature of illegal immigrant work crews and how that puts downward pressure on wage rates is a blatant omission.
    - masonic 4y ago
      >The US clamped down on Mexican border crossings. Now, the border is more porous than ever. There's plenty of labor -- go to any home improvement store parking lot. And that's just the illegal labor -- boost wages and you could recapture legal workers. But for now, go to any construction site in California, and you'll hear only Spanish spoken between the carpenters, roofers, etc. and their supervision.
      - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        Those people were around in 2020 (outside Home Depot here in Seattle) but are all gone now. I guess they are all just really busy rather than being deported or something. I wouldn’t assume all or even most labor on constructions sites are illegal immigrants just because they speak Spanish, if only because the USA has a lot of legal first-gen Hispanic immigrants.
      - Spooky23 4y ago
        So the angry man on the radio says. Back here on earth, roofers are making $36/hr. My brother’s restaurant is paying $28-32/hr for line cooks and dishwashers.
  - closeparen 4y ago
    Housing starts are very cyclical, they absolutely can and do stop building things when it stops being economically favorable to do so. This is one of the reasons we have so few carpenters. It’s a boom and bust industry.
- coldtea 4y ago
  >they are not upping pay, because it's not profitable. They could raise their prices too. When they say "it's not profitable" they mean "we would like to have workers at low pay, but still enjoy selling at low prices".
  - paulpauper 4y ago
    then you lose to cheaper competitors. there is a market for hand-made furniture but Ikea stuff dominates.
    - the_only_law 4y ago
      > there is a market for hand-made furniture but Ikea stuff dominates. And boyyyyy is there a gap between these. I feel like I’m either paid $100 for shitty pressboard or thousands upon thousands for hardwood. Thankfully, there are some decent pieces left from 50 or so years ago that are both solid and dirt cheap at thrift/antique shops.
  - imustbeevil 4y ago
    The market is efficient. You raise prices and pay workers more -> Fewer people are willing to purchase at that price -> You make less profit -> You don't make enough profit to pay people more. It's a complex problem. You could make the same market argument as: if it was profitable to charge more and pay workers more, why doesn't anyone just start a company that does that and outcompete the others?
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Supply and demand are always in flux, and the repeated attempts to match these is what causes market efficiency. It is frequently possible that prices are not keeping up with supply and demand, and there exists arbitrage opportunity that requires people knowledgeable about the market to act on.
    - danielheath 4y ago
      > The market is efficient. The market is more efficient, on average, than other methods of price setting. It’s not perfect efficiency (or even close to it).
- JackMorgan 4y ago
  Haha, very good timing, I just climbed a 4k mountain today in a Virginia heatwave. It was almost 100F real feel in the valley, and if I wasn't doing it for my own satisfaction I'd definitely want a good amount of money for it!
- hansvm 4y ago
  Funny to hear the mountain example. One of my favorite hikes was a 115F climb up the Flatiron.
billfruit 4y ago
Or US government can start to issue large number of temporary "fruit picker" visas.
- laingc 4y ago
  New Zealand does exactly this, and I’m of two minds on it. On the one hand, it seems easy to say that if you don’t have enough workers, you’ve got to raise your price - it’s a free market, right? Except it’s not. NZ has a very generous welfare system (compared to its very small GDP) and this means that being un- or under-employed is a viable option. On the other hand, the jobs also bring in a lot of money for the islanders who perform them, and the wages are relatively high by international standards due to NZ’s high minimum wage. We already have a cost of living crisis, and raising the price of fruit and vegetables by removing these visas for seasonal workers seems like it would hurt everyone without helping anyone in particular.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    > We already have a cost of living crisis, and raising the price of fruit and vegetables by removing these visas for seasonal workers seems like it would hurt everyone without helping anyone in particular. It helps local labor sellers to be in higher demand and hence negotiate higher prices who may have taken the option to pick fruit and vegetables.
    - laingc 4y ago
      I understand that argument, but the very high minimum wage and availability of state support means that in practice there is no market-clearing price for this labour. New Zealanders simply don’t want to do these jobs.
      - ftyers 4y ago
        So maybe those jobs shouldn't be done? It doesn't sound like a complete disaster ...
rufus_foreman 4y ago
Same thing with housing. There is no housing shortage, there are just people who aren't willing to pay the market rate for housing. Up your price that you are willing to pay and you will have housing. If you can't pay the market rate for housing, do not be surprised when you do not have housing. Basic economics.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  This ignores regulatory barriers that impact costs. If it costs 500k to permit and inspect a house, you can absolutely complain
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    Where does it cost 500k for a housing permit?
    - shuckles 4y ago
      Soft costs and impact fees for a home in San Francisco or New York can easily be in that range.
      - endisneigh 4y ago
        Sure, but a permit and inspection does not cost 500K. Making a lot conform might cost that much, sure.
        s1artibartfast 4y ago
        Poster here, 500k was not intended as literal or typical, just and example of how regulatory costs can add to market price. That said, I have spoken to builders who described city costs of several hundred thousand dollars for renovating or building single family/duplex homes. For start, SF permit costs are a % of construction with 6-9% for the basic permit. If you do the work yourself, you have to pay a % of the market cost if you were to contract it out. Then there are a plethora of additional fees and permits, and you can find some of them here {1}. I think you are right that the single biggest cost is code conformance, minimum size, construction ect. Some of the requirements are ridiculous. For example California requires electrical outlets every 48 inches along countertops, independent of if I want them at all. This mentality extends to every part of the the permitting process. https://sf.gov/step-by-step/get-building-permit-house-review https://sf.gov/step-by-step/get-building-permit-house-review
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

paulpauper 4y ago

they are not upping pay, because it's not profitable. to pay ppl enough $ to entice them to do carpentry is not profitable, hence so few of them. I remember climbing a 4,000 ft mountain in a day in the hot sun..you could not pay me enough $ to ever want to do that again, and even if you could, it would never be profitable. That's why things are airlifted.

rdtwo 4y ago
Yeah but carpentry has to be done and is getting done. It’s not so expensive you stop the job and wait for a lower price. My guess is you just use other unskilled labor and go for good enough. Maybe a true skilled carpenter isn’t worth the premium or the value isn’t clear to the buyer
- Spooky23 4y ago
  The way it works is you have a subcontractor pay an immigrant under the table and get it done. The US clamped down on Mexican border crossings. Guess what? There’s no labor. Who would have thunk it.
  - cudgy 4y ago
    This along with the cyclical nature of the housing industry are definite negatives for carpentry as a long-term career for citizens in the US. The fact that the article doesn’t mention the under the table nature of illegal immigrant work crews and how that puts downward pressure on wage rates is a blatant omission.
  - masonic 4y ago
    >The US clamped down on Mexican border crossings. Now, the border is more porous than ever. There's plenty of labor -- go to any home improvement store parking lot. And that's just the illegal labor -- boost wages and you could recapture legal workers. But for now, go to any construction site in California, and you'll hear only Spanish spoken between the carpenters, roofers, etc. and their supervision.
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      Those people were around in 2020 (outside Home Depot here in Seattle) but are all gone now. I guess they are all just really busy rather than being deported or something. I wouldn’t assume all or even most labor on constructions sites are illegal immigrants just because they speak Spanish, if only because the USA has a lot of legal first-gen Hispanic immigrants.
    - Spooky23 4y ago
      So the angry man on the radio says. Back here on earth, roofers are making $36/hr. My brother’s restaurant is paying $28-32/hr for line cooks and dishwashers.
- closeparen 4y ago
  Housing starts are very cyclical, they absolutely can and do stop building things when it stops being economically favorable to do so. This is one of the reasons we have so few carpenters. It’s a boom and bust industry.
coldtea 4y ago
>they are not upping pay, because it's not profitable. They could raise their prices too. When they say "it's not profitable" they mean "we would like to have workers at low pay, but still enjoy selling at low prices".
- paulpauper 4y ago
  then you lose to cheaper competitors. there is a market for hand-made furniture but Ikea stuff dominates.
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    > there is a market for hand-made furniture but Ikea stuff dominates. And boyyyyy is there a gap between these. I feel like I’m either paid $100 for shitty pressboard or thousands upon thousands for hardwood. Thankfully, there are some decent pieces left from 50 or so years ago that are both solid and dirt cheap at thrift/antique shops.
- imustbeevil 4y ago
  The market is efficient. You raise prices and pay workers more -> Fewer people are willing to purchase at that price -> You make less profit -> You don't make enough profit to pay people more. It's a complex problem. You could make the same market argument as: if it was profitable to charge more and pay workers more, why doesn't anyone just start a company that does that and outcompete the others?
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Supply and demand are always in flux, and the repeated attempts to match these is what causes market efficiency. It is frequently possible that prices are not keeping up with supply and demand, and there exists arbitrage opportunity that requires people knowledgeable about the market to act on.
  - danielheath 4y ago
    > The market is efficient. The market is more efficient, on average, than other methods of price setting. It’s not perfect efficiency (or even close to it).
JackMorgan 4y ago
Haha, very good timing, I just climbed a 4k mountain today in a Virginia heatwave. It was almost 100F real feel in the valley, and if I wasn't doing it for my own satisfaction I'd definitely want a good amount of money for it!
hansvm 4y ago
Funny to hear the mountain example. One of my favorite hikes was a 115F climb up the Flatiron.

billfruit 4y ago

Or US government can start to issue large number of temporary "fruit picker" visas.

laingc 4y ago
New Zealand does exactly this, and I’m of two minds on it. On the one hand, it seems easy to say that if you don’t have enough workers, you’ve got to raise your price - it’s a free market, right? Except it’s not. NZ has a very generous welfare system (compared to its very small GDP) and this means that being un- or under-employed is a viable option. On the other hand, the jobs also bring in a lot of money for the islanders who perform them, and the wages are relatively high by international standards due to NZ’s high minimum wage. We already have a cost of living crisis, and raising the price of fruit and vegetables by removing these visas for seasonal workers seems like it would hurt everyone without helping anyone in particular.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  > We already have a cost of living crisis, and raising the price of fruit and vegetables by removing these visas for seasonal workers seems like it would hurt everyone without helping anyone in particular. It helps local labor sellers to be in higher demand and hence negotiate higher prices who may have taken the option to pick fruit and vegetables.
  - laingc 4y ago
    I understand that argument, but the very high minimum wage and availability of state support means that in practice there is no market-clearing price for this labour. New Zealanders simply don’t want to do these jobs.
    - ftyers 4y ago
      So maybe those jobs shouldn't be done? It doesn't sound like a complete disaster ...

rufus_foreman 4y ago

Same thing with housing. There is no housing shortage, there are just people who aren't willing to pay the market rate for housing. Up your price that you are willing to pay and you will have housing. If you can't pay the market rate for housing, do not be surprised when you do not have housing. Basic economics.

s1artibartfast 4y ago
This ignores regulatory barriers that impact costs. If it costs 500k to permit and inspect a house, you can absolutely complain
- endisneigh 4y ago
  Where does it cost 500k for a housing permit?
  - shuckles 4y ago
    Soft costs and impact fees for a home in San Francisco or New York can easily be in that range.
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      Sure, but a permit and inspection does not cost 500K. Making a lot conform might cost that much, sure.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        Poster here, 500k was not intended as literal or typical, just and example of how regulatory costs can add to market price. That said, I have spoken to builders who described city costs of several hundred thousand dollars for renovating or building single family/duplex homes. For start, SF permit costs are a % of construction with 6-9% for the basic permit. If you do the work yourself, you have to pay a % of the market cost if you were to contract it out. Then there are a plethora of additional fees and permits, and you can find some of them here {1}. I think you are right that the single biggest cost is code conformance, minimum size, construction ect. Some of the requirements are ridiculous. For example California requires electrical outlets every 48 inches along countertops, independent of if I want them at all. This mentality extends to every part of the the permitting process. https://sf.gov/step-by-step/get-building-permit-house-review https://sf.gov/step-by-step/get-building-permit-house-review

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]