5 ms·

I have always had a tough time applying the tool of reason to the problem of loneliness. In a way, I don't feel like I've ever been lonely. Not that I have neve

I have always had a tough time applying the tool of reason to the problem of loneliness. In a way, I don't feel like I've ever been lonely. Not that I have never felt the same way that people who do describe themselves as lonely feel. I have and still often do. The 'problem' is that I've always been able to isolate the reason I'm feeling that way and administer some kind of intervention. And I know, that getting older will not bring with it any greater problems than I have now. Is my soul yearning for spiritual connection? I've got a good friend for that. My libido looking for an exhilarating one? There's bars and the ubiquitous 'more-than-friend-but-not-quite-committed' friendship we all seem to have but never seem to really look to for that sort of thing. The least lonely person I know is in his late 70s. He's always talking to someone whenever I see him. But every American I know outside of my usual social circle seems to be painfully, debilitatingly lonely, and I can't make heads or tails of it. Perhaps most are trapped in a hell of looksism. Instagram has ruined their lives because they can't bring themselves to work that hard to look that good. Maybe they're too shy to cultivate third places. Perhaps they're looking for some kind of spiritual connection and, since American religion has so thoroughly shit the bed, they have absolutely zero idea of how to even approach it. It often seems like they just want to find someone almost exactly like themselves. I remember one guy I met at a bar, who wanted dearly to find his next best friend in me, would start berating me almost immediately after we started hanging out together. Like I didn't fit the role he wanted me to play in his life and that's gotta be my fault. The vagueness of the problem makes it so devilishly difficult to approach with reason. But just about any difference between what someone's life is like and what they want it to be seems to manifest in their psyche as loneliness. And the reason they themselves come up with is often just utterly counter-productive. But you can't challenge their reasoning head-on, it's like fighting the tides. It's a sad, quiet, seemingly uniquely American epidemic, borne out of our thoroughgoing insecurity and status-desiring.

stuxnet79 4y ago
You seem to be applying a cultural slant to this. I'm curious, how does it differ outside of America in your perspective? I agree that part of the problem at least in America, is a mismatch in expectations caused by a media-infused, image-obsessed culture. There is a need to "perform", be larger than life and be interesting. It is incredibly suffocating and makes relationships more transactional than they should be.
- vinceguidry 4y ago
  Other cultures just don't seem to be as relentlessly status-hungry. Like, I've met homeless people in Colombia with better self-esteem than well-off Americans. Like our visible affluence is eating us alive. Old women in a bunch of Asian countries gather together in public places for some activity or other, often something physically active like ping pong or dancing. America for the most part seems to have lost the concept of public space, every space is private and to be monetized unless explicitly deemed otherwise. This dynamic: "just about any difference between what someone's life is like and what they want it to be seems to manifest in their psyche as loneliness," just doesn't seem to be how people from other cultures process that difference. They don't externalize that difference in a way that makes themselves out to be the victim and deserving of better. They seem at least a little more willing to own up to their own role in it.
  - petra 4y ago
    >> Like, I've met homeless people in Colombia with better self-esteem than well-off Americans. That's interesting, can you expand on those Colombian people and why they have such high self-esteem ?
    - vinceguidry 4y ago
      I would hesitate before trying to explain Colombian culture. I've been three times and I can only scratch the surface. But I spotted a homeless guy in Colombia once working to repair a water pipe leak that was spilling a bunch of water out onto the street. It's hard to find Americans with that kind of pride of place. But just about everybody carried themselves with dignity over there.
openknot 4y ago
>"Is my soul yearning for spiritual connection? I've got a good friend for that. My libido looking for an exhilarating one? There's bars and the ubiquitous 'more-than-friend-but-not-quite-committed' friendship we all seem to have but never seem to really look to for that sort of thing. The least lonely person I know is in his late 70s. He's always talking to someone whenever I see him." Academic research may be a good starting point. A 2021 study reports that ~29.5% of Americans aged 55 and older "were considered high in loneliness" in 2020 (source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34283657/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34283657/). Loneliness was correlated with "those who reported depression, who were not married or in a relationship, who lived alone, and who were unemployed at the onset of the pandemic." Anecdotally, I found it unusually difficult to go to pubs for hookups when I was younger. I never once had a "'more-than-friend-but-not-quite-committed' friendship." I suspect it was partly due to race as an ethnic minority; there is an effect has been well-established from studies (source: https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/575352051/least-desirable-how-racial-discrimination-plays-out-in-online-dating https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/575352051/least-desirable-how...) that there are negative preferences against men and women of a specific race in online dating. Factors largely out of one's control, from ethnicity to difficulties with picking up social cues, can contribute to a lack of relationships. To connect this to the previous study, where loneliness was correlated to those "who were not married or in a relationship, who lived alone," it's quite possible that a significant driver of the loneliness in the United States the lack of committed long-term relationships between people. The search for a solution to a lack of relationships by an individual can lead to many dangerous paths. It can tragically lead to extremism and terror attacks (such as the 2018 van attack in Toronto, source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54895219 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54895219). It can lead to people to join movements such as the "manosphere" or "female dating strategy," where they feel less alone with their problems, but pick up bad habits that make it far more difficult to have a healthy relationship. I believe that these movements have contributed to emotional abuse in relationships and sexual assault by people who push boundaries. A starting solution I recommend is this: i) Recognize that many people are lonely because they can't create romantic relationships, or even friendships. ii) Instead of isolating them or alienating them, figure out why they can't create these relationships. Are they in good psychological health (e.g. would they have untreated depression, anxiety, ADHD, or grief)? Do they have social skills? How can they access readily-available treatment methods from a reputable source (i.e. a competent and experienced counsellor, versus a dating coach who exploits people who are lonely)? iii) Building on the previous step, ask: are they economically secure? Can they find a stable job where they can provide for themselves, which can treat the root causes of potential depression and anxiety (which also helps them find relationships and friends more easily)? Each step can be very hard, but I believe this can help reduce vagueness to some extent. However, there are unfortunately many edge cases where these steps don't work. Examples include severe and persistent mental health disorders; people who want a relationship but struggle greatly due to a physical or mental disorder; or people who don't want to help themselves. For at least some of these people, some countries offer "sexual surrogacy," where a licensed counsellor eventually provides physical intimacy in a controlled environment (source: https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-sexual-surrogacy https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-sexual-surrogacy), but I haven't read enough about it to tell if it's effective. It's tougher for what to do with people who don't want help, though. For the individual struggling with loneliness, I would recommend focusing on improving the stability of one's own life and working on social skills without studying pickup artistry. Good resources for improving social skills without pickup artistry are typically written by psychologists or psychiatrists with clinical experience, such as "Intimate Connections" by David Burns (same author as "Feeling Good," a reputable book on cognitive-behavioral techniques). At the least, a focus on financial independence and stability can be a good foundation to working on the other problems in life, as it's harder to be happy and create meaningful relationships with money problems.
charlie0 4y ago
I thoroughly agree that loneliness is specifically an issue with America. Here we are taught to value the individual above all else. While this provides nice benefits, it also has its downsides. Everywhere I look, most people in their 20's are focused on their careers, people in their 30's-40's are raising children, and by their 50's are basically home bodies. I myself am stuck with being focused on my career. I feel as if I take too much time off to be social, I will fall behind in the rat race. I'm comparing this against a multi-month trip I did in South America. I frequently encountered public transportation and so many more people walked. I found myself talking with random people just because we happened to be walking in the same direction or taking the same public transport or right next to each other at popular restaurants.

stuxnet79 4y ago

You seem to be applying a cultural slant to this. I'm curious, how does it differ outside of America in your perspective? I agree that part of the problem at least in America, is a mismatch in expectations caused by a media-infused, image-obsessed culture. There is a need to "perform", be larger than life and be interesting. It is incredibly suffocating and makes relationships more transactional than they should be.

vinceguidry 4y ago
Other cultures just don't seem to be as relentlessly status-hungry. Like, I've met homeless people in Colombia with better self-esteem than well-off Americans. Like our visible affluence is eating us alive. Old women in a bunch of Asian countries gather together in public places for some activity or other, often something physically active like ping pong or dancing. America for the most part seems to have lost the concept of public space, every space is private and to be monetized unless explicitly deemed otherwise. This dynamic: "just about any difference between what someone's life is like and what they want it to be seems to manifest in their psyche as loneliness," just doesn't seem to be how people from other cultures process that difference. They don't externalize that difference in a way that makes themselves out to be the victim and deserving of better. They seem at least a little more willing to own up to their own role in it.
- petra 4y ago
  >> Like, I've met homeless people in Colombia with better self-esteem than well-off Americans. That's interesting, can you expand on those Colombian people and why they have such high self-esteem ?
  - vinceguidry 4y ago
    I would hesitate before trying to explain Colombian culture. I've been three times and I can only scratch the surface. But I spotted a homeless guy in Colombia once working to repair a water pipe leak that was spilling a bunch of water out onto the street. It's hard to find Americans with that kind of pride of place. But just about everybody carried themselves with dignity over there.

openknot 4y ago

>"Is my soul yearning for spiritual connection? I've got a good friend for that. My libido looking for an exhilarating one? There's bars and the ubiquitous 'more-than-friend-but-not-quite-committed' friendship we all seem to have but never seem to really look to for that sort of thing. The least lonely person I know is in his late 70s. He's always talking to someone whenever I see him." Academic research may be a good starting point. A 2021 study reports that ~29.5% of Americans aged 55 and older "were considered high in loneliness" in 2020 (source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34283657/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34283657/). Loneliness was correlated with "those who reported depression, who were not married or in a relationship, who lived alone, and who were unemployed at the onset of the pandemic." Anecdotally, I found it unusually difficult to go to pubs for hookups when I was younger. I never once had a "'more-than-friend-but-not-quite-committed' friendship." I suspect it was partly due to race as an ethnic minority; there is an effect has been well-established from studies (source: https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/575352051/least-desirable-how-racial-discrimination-plays-out-in-online-dating https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/575352051/least-desirable-how...) that there are negative preferences against men and women of a specific race in online dating. Factors largely out of one's control, from ethnicity to difficulties with picking up social cues, can contribute to a lack of relationships. To connect this to the previous study, where loneliness was correlated to those "who were not married or in a relationship, who lived alone," it's quite possible that a significant driver of the loneliness in the United States the lack of committed long-term relationships between people. The search for a solution to a lack of relationships by an individual can lead to many dangerous paths. It can tragically lead to extremism and terror attacks (such as the 2018 van attack in Toronto, source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54895219 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54895219). It can lead to people to join movements such as the "manosphere" or "female dating strategy," where they feel less alone with their problems, but pick up bad habits that make it far more difficult to have a healthy relationship. I believe that these movements have contributed to emotional abuse in relationships and sexual assault by people who push boundaries. A starting solution I recommend is this: i) Recognize that many people are lonely because they can't create romantic relationships, or even friendships. ii) Instead of isolating them or alienating them, figure out why they can't create these relationships. Are they in good psychological health (e.g. would they have untreated depression, anxiety, ADHD, or grief)? Do they have social skills? How can they access readily-available treatment methods from a reputable source (i.e. a competent and experienced counsellor, versus a dating coach who exploits people who are lonely)? iii) Building on the previous step, ask: are they economically secure? Can they find a stable job where they can provide for themselves, which can treat the root causes of potential depression and anxiety (which also helps them find relationships and friends more easily)? Each step can be very hard, but I believe this can help reduce vagueness to some extent. However, there are unfortunately many edge cases where these steps don't work. Examples include severe and persistent mental health disorders; people who want a relationship but struggle greatly due to a physical or mental disorder; or people who don't want to help themselves. For at least some of these people, some countries offer "sexual surrogacy," where a licensed counsellor eventually provides physical intimacy in a controlled environment (source: https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-sexual-surrogacy https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-sexual-surrogacy), but I haven't read enough about it to tell if it's effective. It's tougher for what to do with people who don't want help, though. For the individual struggling with loneliness, I would recommend focusing on improving the stability of one's own life and working on social skills without studying pickup artistry. Good resources for improving social skills without pickup artistry are typically written by psychologists or psychiatrists with clinical experience, such as "Intimate Connections" by David Burns (same author as "Feeling Good," a reputable book on cognitive-behavioral techniques). At the least, a focus on financial independence and stability can be a good foundation to working on the other problems in life, as it's harder to be happy and create meaningful relationships with money problems.

charlie0 4y ago

I thoroughly agree that loneliness is specifically an issue with America. Here we are taught to value the individual above all else. While this provides nice benefits, it also has its downsides. Everywhere I look, most people in their 20's are focused on their careers, people in their 30's-40's are raising children, and by their 50's are basically home bodies. I myself am stuck with being focused on my career. I feel as if I take too much time off to be social, I will fall behind in the rat race. I'm comparing this against a multi-month trip I did in South America. I frequently encountered public transportation and so many more people walked. I found myself talking with random people just because we happened to be walking in the same direction or taking the same public transport or right next to each other at popular restaurants.