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This is why sex work should be mainstreamed and laws created to protect workers in the industry, including prostitution.
by pm90 4y ago
This is why sex work should be mainstreamed and laws created to protect workers in the industry, including prostitution.
- rayiner 4y agoIf sex worn was “mainstreamed” more women would feel pressured to do it, and they don’t want that pressure. It’s like OSHA and minimum wage laws. It puts a floor on what workers in a market economy are expected to do. To avoid a race to the bottom, it’s not enough to simply avoid working in a dangerous workplace yourself (or working below minimum wage or doing sex work), you have to make it illegal for everyone.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- warent 4y agoWomen already feel pressure to perform sexual favors in exchange for things. That is a problem with society and culture, quite separate from what we're talking about here. All adult women want is the empowerment to make decisions for their own bodies. It is theirs, after all.
- rayiner 4y ago> Women already feel pressure to perform sexual favors in exchange for things. That is a problem with society and culture, quite separate from what we're talking about here. No, it's completely intertwined. Because these pressures exist in numerous contexts, we've developed both social norms and laws to limit the race to the bottom, overwhelmingly with the support of the women affected by those pressures. > All adult women want is the empowerment to make decisions for their own bodies. It is theirs, after all. Which women? More women identify as "conservative" than "liberal"--and even among the latter, legalizing sex work is not a majority (and possibly not even mainstream) position. My mom thinks sex work is very bad for society. It's probably one of the things my mom, all my aunts, and my wife's mom and aunts agree with, despite being from different countries and otherwise having quite different political views. Opposition to sex work is something that women tend to get the most riled up about, because ultimately its mothers and daughters that suffer from the consequences of sex work.
- evgen 4y ago> Which women? More women identify as "conservative" than "liberal" Not even close to reality. More women identify as liberal than as conservative, more are registered Democrats than Republicans, and even within the Republican party women skew moderate rather than conservative. Among nonvoters the gender breakdown on various issues that can be easily identified as liberal or conservative shows that women favor policies that are generally considered liberal.
- rayiner 4y agoMore women identify as conservative than liberal: https://news.gallup.com/poll/388988/political-ideology-steady-conservatives-moderates-tie.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/388988/political-ideology-stead..., with the plurality identifying as moderate. People think sex work should be “mainstreamed” (as stated by OP) would almost certainly identify as liberal; and I’d be surprised if even a majority of self-described liberals would support that position. Women tend to be less libertarian than men, and sometimes that breaks towards more liberal attitudes (they are more likely to favor generous social programs), and sometimes that breaks towards more conservative attitudes (they are more likely to oppose legalized prostitution and pornography). As of 2016, attitudes were closely divided on legalizing sex work overall (40% in favor, 43% against). But the gender breakdown was striking: https://www.vox.com/2016/3/11/11203740/prostitution-legal-men-women-poll https://www.vox.com/2016/3/11/11203740/prostitution-legal-me.... Men supported legalization 51-36, while women opposed it 30-50. Women similarly oppose pornography--just 25% find it morally acceptable, compared to 43% of men: https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/snqr1ifu40ogxi0zbyp-va.png https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Pro... Being a Democrat, of course, isn't dispositive of anything. My mom is a democrat, because she likes Obamacare and Anthony Fauci. But she's as socially conservative as any republican. (Like Black people: https://news.gallup.com/poll/112807/blacks-conservative-republicans-some-moral-issues.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/112807/blacks-conservative-repu...) Social libertarianism is championed mainly by the white college educated wing of the Democratic Party. But the party is ideologically diverse. For example, under 60% of Democrats say that “changing gender roles” has “made it easier for women to lead satisfying lives”: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/10/18/wide-partisan-gaps-in-u-s-over-how-far-the-country-has-come-on-gender-equality https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/10/18/wide-pa.... For Democrats without a college degree, it's under 50%. Sorry for the lengthy rant, but people projecting their views onto "women" (or another popular one these days, "people of color") has become a pet peeve of mine. When you say stuff like what "adult women want is the empowerment to make decisions for their own bodies" you’re making a libertarian argument, and statistically that’s going to be most appealing to white men. (That doesn’t make it wrong, but if you’re going to bring identity into it you don’t get to play fast and loose with what arguments different groups tend to find more compelling.)
- Cloudef 4y agoBullshit, women know they get things in exchange for some play or because of their looks. Not every women of course does this, but its foolish to ignore the group that very well knows this and uses this to their advance. Its not the womans fault though, its the man who falls for this. Similarily theres men who do the same thing using either their looks or wealth as a chip. We are human, but we are also bunch of monkeys in the end.
- fuj 4y ago
- a4isms 4y ago
- op00to 4y agoIf a market free from regulation improves jobs, I would love to hear how that idea is reconciled with the existence of pimps. A pimp is the abusive free market solution to a regulated sex work market.
- rayiner 4y ago> And please, your citation should not just justify your socially conservative talking point, but also falsify the converse perspective, which is that laws against sex work marginalize those who perform it, opening them up to exploitation from criminals and persecution from law enforcement. Laws against sex work do marginalize the people who perform it. It's a trade off. Liberals tend to place a strong emphasis on that harm to the minority, and devalue the harm to the majority from breaking down the taboo. Conservatives, meanwhile, tend to focus more on the benefit to the majority of the norms, and devalue the harm to sex workers. > I'd also like to understand what you're saying about minimum wage laws. > That's magical conservative thinking, the belief that an unregulated marketplace creates a positive sum game and not an exploitative economy. The belief that removing protection for labour creates better jobs for everyone, and not more exploitation of employees. The belief that removing regulations around commerce will get rid of fraud, not incentivize it. I'm just applying the same arguments that you're applying about minimum wage laws to sex work. In both cases, the laws make it illegal to do certain kinds of work--it limits individual freedom because some people may be willing to do that work--in order to prevent a race to the bottom and exploitation of the population as a whole. What you're describing as "magical conservative thinking" is, more accurately, "magical libertarian thinking." And liberals are quite often inclined to engage in such magical libertarian thinking--the idea that maximizing individual freedom maximizes social welfare--just in different contexts.
- coding123 4y agoCan someone please make a memo somewhere that "magical thinking" is not an argument it's just a new thing people say to devalue someone's argument. I don't care what side people are on this phrase is WAAAAY overused.
- op00to 4y agoWhat’s special about money that requires the government to ban consensual sex between two adults when moneys exchanged? I know the real reason is just plain Christian morality. But ignoring that shit, there is nothing inherently wrong or harmful about two adults having sex.
- wincy 4y agoWhat about the risk of STDs to a man who goes down to the local brothel for his unknowing faithful wife? What if a man contracts HIV/AIDS and gives it to his wife? What if a woman who already has children with one man gets pregnant from a man she’s not married to, or a man gets another woman pregnant? Are these purely Christian morality or do they hint at very real underlying biological reasons total sexual freedom might be problematic to a society? These sorts of things do happen.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- op00to 4y ago> what if a woman who already has children with one man gets pregnant from a man she’s not married to Who cares? There's no law against this. > his unknowing faithful > a man gets another woman pregnant Your hypotheticals talk about people who are dishonest. The problem is inappropriate activity outside of a monogamous relationship. If one partner doesn't discuss their behavior with their other partner, the problem wasn't the sex worker, it is that they are not being honest about their activities. Your examples are moot anyway because regulated sex workers are tested every day, and are required to use condoms to protect against HIV. The risk of STD or pregnancy with a regulated sex worker are miniscule. It's far more risky for the husband to go to a bar and pick up someone randomly. > Are these purely Christian morality > total sexual freedom might be problematic to a society At least for now, we have sexual freedom in many jurisdictions all over the world, and society seems to be chugging along. Sexual activity isn't bringing the world to it's knees. (hee hee) The concept might be problematic to your vision of what society should look like, but the rest of us are enjoying life and letting others live their life choices.
- jacquesm 4y agoThis is a 1950's era argument that has been proven wrong in many places already. Such as the Netherlands.
- rayiner 4y ago> This is a 1950's era argument Sometimes societal evolution takes a wrong turn and embraces ideas that are maladaptive. For example, in the Netherlands, the Muslim immigrants who are demographically ascendant for the most part embrace these “1950s” ideas, and are outcompeting the Dutch folks who have embraced sexual liberalism.
- jacquesm 4y agoWhich has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. Really, what an incredibly weak argument. The Netherlands has chosen to legalize prostitution, for good reasons which have proven in practice that the argument that you are making is invalid. That immigrants (the bulk of which joined since that legalization) are demographically ascendant and embrace those same ideas that you espouse is utterly irrelevant. The point is: there is ample evidence that the theory you push is wrong.
- rayiner 4y agoCultures that decouple sex from procreative relationships are in decline. The literal commoditization of it through legalized prostitution is a merely a specific manifestation of a more general cultural attitude.
- jacquesm 4y ago> Cultures that decouple sex from procreative relationships are in decline. Ok, so now we're in 1890 or so. Really, this is beyond absurd. > The literal commoditization of it through legalized prostitution is a merely a specific manifestation of a more general cultural attitude. No, it means that you recognize that realistically prostitution is going to happen anyway, regardless of what you think or feel about it, so you try to make it as safe for the sex workers as you can and legalization is a very important step in that. I give up.
- zzzeek 4y agoyou don't need to legalize prostitution in order to make sexual extortion illegal.
- sp332 4y agoYes you do, because otherwise the sex worker reporting the extortion to the police will also be admitting to a crime. So it won't happen.
- throw_m239339 4y ago> Yes you do, because otherwise the sex worker reporting the extortion to the police will also be admitting to a crime. So it won't happen. No you don't, you just need to make buying sex and pimping illegal, you can do that without punishing the victims, what you call "sex workers" is a euphemism for sex trafficked women.
- verve_rat 4y agoNot it is not. Plenty of people engage in sex work without being coerced or trafficked.
- throw_m239339 4y agoThe overwhelming majority of prostitutes are sex trafficked women and children who were never given the choice. Legalizing prostitution leads to more trafficking. https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/19/is-legalized-prostitution-safer/legalizing-prostitution-leads-to-more-trafficking https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/19/is-legalize...
- JamesBarney 4y agoThat doesn't say anything about what percentage of sex workers were sex trafficked. The only stat it gives are what percentage of sex workers were sexually abused prior to entry. The best estimate I've seen for percentage of active sex workers that are currently being trafficked was between 3 and 4 %. https://aella.substack.com/p/what-percentage-of-sex-workers-in?s=r https://aella.substack.com/p/what-percentage-of-sex-workers-...
- Bancakes 4y ago
- op00to 4y agoI think being a sex worker is probably more work than being a software developer at a FAANG. Certainly higher risk. Absolutely a real job. Better than, say, pharmaceutical rep.
- Bancakes 4y ago
- pavlov 4y agoIn 18th century Europe this same argument was used to deprive actors of civil rights. Robespierre had to argue in 1789 that the French Republic should let actors and Jews vote: https://www.amis-robespierre.org/Robespierre-dans-le-texte-Sur-le https://www.amis-robespierre.org/Robespierre-dans-le-texte-S...
- op00to 4y agoJobs are required by law to be constructive to a personality and a family life? Is that some new Supreme Court decision or something? A job is a paid position. That’s the definition. You don’t get to make up your own to suit your own twisted view of reality. Hey, being a police officer often tears families apart, with police having far higher rates of divorce. That’s not constructive to family life. Is policing a real job?
- Bancakes 4y agoIf a job is a paid position period, then why do you care about prostitutes' supposed rights and comforts?
- nix23 4y agoWhat is your take on alcohol?
- nix23 4y agoEhh she stalked the Meta employer. BTW: For example in Switzerland it is legal, you even have (in theory) to pay taxes. But still the problems are the same (human trafficking etc), nothing changed, and if you go to the police you have accidents like floating dead in a river a week later. Legalize it but make nothing to take the mafia away from it brings nothing, in fact it gives them a legal way to make money. Maybe it should be a state owned business only and not a private thing, sounds crazy but if you work for the state not even the mafia would dare to touch you, you have stable employment, insurance and medical services.
- namelessoracle 4y agoWasnt this the idea behind state owned liquor stores?
- nix23 4y agoYes, but liquor need's no protection ;) But i know what you mean, i really don't have a solution just some ideas, i just know that "just" legalize it did not change the life's (or just very few of them) to the better.
- icambron 4y agoDoesn’t sound like she actually stalked anyone. She’s using the term colloquially to mean “I spent time browsing a stranger’s social media profile”, which is a common usage.
- warent 4y ago
- make3 4y agowtf does this have to do with extortion being illegal. it could be a shakedown for money or whatever too
- some_random 4y agoThe sex work you see on OnlyFans is already legal, the problem isn't legality it's the attitudes of social media companies, platforms, and payment processors.
- iKevinShah 4y agoThis is also why "Big Tech" has to be mainstreamed and laws created to protect user accounts and provide a streamlined, regulated way to remove | ban | un-ban | reinstate accounts. We should not be letting "our systems" in Big Tech do their thing. Specially when it comes to a person's accounts
- coding123 4y agoOh THIS is why.