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I would argue making it free and keeping it free would have been a cool move. - Less/no expensive accounting - Less/no personnel for checking tickets - Less/no

I would argue making it free and keeping it free would have been a cool move. - Less/no expensive accounting - Less/no personnel for checking tickets - Less/no personnel for prosecuting people who don't have tickets - Less/no ticket vending machines (and all the maintenance that comes with it) - Less traffic on the roads since you can't beat "free" and hence less emissions (at least in hamburg trains operate on green energy) and less wear on the roads (might be offset by the wear on trains and busses) - Fully non-discriminant with respect to income I have no idea if that would work for inter-city transport but for inner-city transport the HVV for example (the public transportation network responsible for hamburg and surrounding areas) sells 30 million tickets a year and I wonder how much it truly costs them to do that with all the relevant factors mentioned above.

aloe_falsa 4y ago
At least in Berlin, they tried to introduce a free ticket. It failed due to organizational reasons: https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/open-mind/scheitert-jetzt-auch-das-neun-euro-ticket-li.228544 https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/open-mind/scheitert-jetzt-au...
jacobr1 4y ago
> I have no idea if that would work for inter-city transport With inner-city transport, while free would undoubtedly have some marginal impact (and more over time as residential and commute patterns shift) there probably wouldn't be large shifts in use. I suspect for inter-city, you would actually see significantly increased usage, which could outweigh all the benefits cited.
- soco 4y ago
  Increased usage outweighing the benefits...?? I'm confused by the wording, do you mean that in a good or a bad way?
  - MauranKilom 4y ago
    Probably commenting on local transit networks being generally at capacity during rush hour, which this would not improve. For example, in Munich, there is a ~10% cheaper version of the monthly ticket that is only valid after 9 AM. This kind of incentive shaping falls flat. (That is not to say I object to the new ticket, to be clear.)
hhlevnjak2 4y ago
Perhaps it would work in DE, but it can create wrong incentives. Here in Croatia, we had "free" public transport in some places for i.e. students travelling to school. But the price was still paid for by the cities/government to service operators. Which led to inflated prices for the service because there's always a way for the operator and some officials to collude together for extra profit. And the increases weren't transparent until at some point the tickets were no longer "free", and suddenly their cost was way over what it was before it became "free".
- soco 4y ago
  Corruption always finds a way, with or without free transport. What I mean, that cannot be a reason to not provide some service, because also the paid transport is getting (or can be) corrupted I suppose, just like everything else.
  - FabHK 4y ago
    > Corruption always finds a way, with or without free transport. Indeed. I've taken the train in Romania with a Romanian friend. The ticket for both of us would have been X$, say, but she talked to the conductor and paid him 1/3 X$ in cash to "look the other way" and ignore us. Conductor pocketed that, we traveled cheaper, and the company lost the revenue.
Archelaos 4y ago
> I would argue making it free and keeping it free would have been a cool move. Here in Germany, there were many voices in favour of making the ticket completely free. What I heard about the reason for not doing so is that the government wanted to easily measure the actual demand in different regions for such a "free" ticket. So the price is low enough that anybody who wants to ride practically "for free" is buying it, but so high that most people who do not really use it won't buy it. I expect that if the ticket is a success, it will be replaced by real free rides in the future. And the results of the test period could help determine how the costs should finally be shared between the different regions and local governments.
- pwdisswordfish0 4y ago
  >I expect that if the ticket is a success, it will be replaced by real free rides in the future. What’s your confidence level here? Because if you can make me believe that the ticket is effectively a vote for ticketless/free ÖPNV I will buy them for everyone I know.
  - Archelaos 4y ago
    There is support for this idea across MPs of multiple parties, from Conservatives, Liberals, Greens and Labour/Left. It appears to be a comparatively cheap measure to reduce CO2 footprint (I am not an expert here, though, so this might be incorrect, but one hears this argument a lot) and at the same time an easy measure to improve mobility for the poor. (Thousands of people went to jail in Germany every year because they repeatedly travelled without a ticket and could not or prefered not to pay the panalty fee.) So the zeitgeist is very much in favour of it, and ecological topics (in the wider sense) are becoming more and more important for people's decission what party to vote for. So what initially were niche topics of the Greens are becoming increasingly popular and more so, when they coincide with goals of other parties, such as social policy ideas from Labour/Left and the trade unions or the administrative simplifications ideas of the Liberals. Note also that Germany is already heavily subsidising its local puplic transport, with the effect that everyone pays taxes for tickets that only a minority uses.[1] [1] At a moment's notice, I could only find old estimates from 2008 that amount to 25 billion Euros per year (more than 300 Euros per inhabitant per year) for local and regional transport (not including long distance transport) as of which only 9 billion Euros (35%) were paid directly from tickets or similar. This means 16 billion (65%) were already payed by the public (aprox. 200 Euro per inhabitant per year) -- see: https://www.zukunft-mobilitaet.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/finanzierung-oepnv-deutschland-summen-zusammensetzung.jpg https://www.zukunft-mobilitaet.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/0... (in German).
the8472 4y ago
A token price (9€/m is cheaper than even subsidized region-specific tickets for students or the elderly) likely has some benefits such as making it easy to count interest based on sales. It might also make the inrush a bit more manageable.
dav_Oz 4y ago
I guess one could argue that it is technically "free" for personal use, as tap water is (1 cubic meter (1000 litres) in the Netherlands is about net cost .87€ [0]) if one is not trying to abuse it for a agricultural hobby, a private swimming hall etc. than it actually gets expensive very quick; in the case of a unregistered pipe break (incentivizing inspections) extraordinarily so. The "price" is for ensuring fair use (on such a big scale)/registering the influx; yes, 1€ could also do the trick but in the case of DB AG we are talking about an highly over-bureaucratized ... so one order of magnitude higher and you arrive at the current pricing. [0]https://www.waternet.nl/en/veelgestelde-vragen/tap-water/what-does-a-cubic-metre-of-tap-water-cost/ https://www.waternet.nl/en/veelgestelde-vragen/tap-water/wha...
FabHK 4y ago
> - Less/no expensive accounting Not quite. Many people (eg commuters) have monthly train passes, almost all students have a "Semesterticket" (university enrolment is about 350 EUR every half year, but that includes all public transport in the region). Now, the 9-Euro-Ticket is cheaper than those options, so out of fairness the holders of all those tickets are getting a refund of 3 months worth of their pass minus 3x9=27 EUR, which is a huge administrative burden for the public transport providers and universities. That substantial burden would not have been reduced by having the ticket for free.
- VGltZUNvbnN1 4y ago
  I am going to need a citation for the substantial burden everything I read is that they are annoyed but its easy to do.
  - FabHK 4y ago
    Could well be that the complaining is exaggerated, but there is definitely complaining. > "Theoretically, all students would need to be reimbursed or credited 79.98 EUR each," says [speaker of Bochum University] Dessaul. An enormous administrative effort, because almost 43,000 young people study there. > The AStA (student council) [of Duisburg-Essen University] would have to initiate 40,000 bank transfers [for the refunds]. "This would be an incredible effort, especially given the limited number of people we have in treasury, finance, and on the board, that would be extremely difficult to manage and would probably also take considerable time" https://www.businessinsider.de/politik/deutschland/trotz-bereits-bezahlter-semestertickets-wie-studenten-puenktlich-zum-sommer-an-das-neun-euro-ticket-kommen-koennen-a/ https://www.businessinsider.de/politik/deutschland/trotz-ber...
- Escapado 4y ago
  You are right, however if it would have been made free and kept free indefinitely this would have been a one-time cost.
  - iggldiggl 4y ago
addandsubtract 4y ago
I doubt anyone will be checking tickets in the next three months.

aloe_falsa 4y ago

At least in Berlin, they tried to introduce a free ticket. It failed due to organizational reasons: https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/open-mind/scheitert-jetzt-auch-das-neun-euro-ticket-li.228544 https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/open-mind/scheitert-jetzt-au...

jacobr1 4y ago

> I have no idea if that would work for inter-city transport With inner-city transport, while free would undoubtedly have some marginal impact (and more over time as residential and commute patterns shift) there probably wouldn't be large shifts in use. I suspect for inter-city, you would actually see significantly increased usage, which could outweigh all the benefits cited.

soco 4y ago
Increased usage outweighing the benefits...?? I'm confused by the wording, do you mean that in a good or a bad way?
- MauranKilom 4y ago
  Probably commenting on local transit networks being generally at capacity during rush hour, which this would not improve. For example, in Munich, there is a ~10% cheaper version of the monthly ticket that is only valid after 9 AM. This kind of incentive shaping falls flat. (That is not to say I object to the new ticket, to be clear.)

hhlevnjak2 4y ago

Perhaps it would work in DE, but it can create wrong incentives. Here in Croatia, we had "free" public transport in some places for i.e. students travelling to school. But the price was still paid for by the cities/government to service operators. Which led to inflated prices for the service because there's always a way for the operator and some officials to collude together for extra profit. And the increases weren't transparent until at some point the tickets were no longer "free", and suddenly their cost was way over what it was before it became "free".

soco 4y ago
Corruption always finds a way, with or without free transport. What I mean, that cannot be a reason to not provide some service, because also the paid transport is getting (or can be) corrupted I suppose, just like everything else.
- FabHK 4y ago
  > Corruption always finds a way, with or without free transport. Indeed. I've taken the train in Romania with a Romanian friend. The ticket for both of us would have been X$, say, but she talked to the conductor and paid him 1/3 X$ in cash to "look the other way" and ignore us. Conductor pocketed that, we traveled cheaper, and the company lost the revenue.

Archelaos 4y ago

> I would argue making it free and keeping it free would have been a cool move. Here in Germany, there were many voices in favour of making the ticket completely free. What I heard about the reason for not doing so is that the government wanted to easily measure the actual demand in different regions for such a "free" ticket. So the price is low enough that anybody who wants to ride practically "for free" is buying it, but so high that most people who do not really use it won't buy it. I expect that if the ticket is a success, it will be replaced by real free rides in the future. And the results of the test period could help determine how the costs should finally be shared between the different regions and local governments.

pwdisswordfish0 4y ago
>I expect that if the ticket is a success, it will be replaced by real free rides in the future. What’s your confidence level here? Because if you can make me believe that the ticket is effectively a vote for ticketless/free ÖPNV I will buy them for everyone I know.
- Archelaos 4y ago
  There is support for this idea across MPs of multiple parties, from Conservatives, Liberals, Greens and Labour/Left. It appears to be a comparatively cheap measure to reduce CO2 footprint (I am not an expert here, though, so this might be incorrect, but one hears this argument a lot) and at the same time an easy measure to improve mobility for the poor. (Thousands of people went to jail in Germany every year because they repeatedly travelled without a ticket and could not or prefered not to pay the panalty fee.) So the zeitgeist is very much in favour of it, and ecological topics (in the wider sense) are becoming more and more important for people's decission what party to vote for. So what initially were niche topics of the Greens are becoming increasingly popular and more so, when they coincide with goals of other parties, such as social policy ideas from Labour/Left and the trade unions or the administrative simplifications ideas of the Liberals. Note also that Germany is already heavily subsidising its local puplic transport, with the effect that everyone pays taxes for tickets that only a minority uses.[1] [1] At a moment's notice, I could only find old estimates from 2008 that amount to 25 billion Euros per year (more than 300 Euros per inhabitant per year) for local and regional transport (not including long distance transport) as of which only 9 billion Euros (35%) were paid directly from tickets or similar. This means 16 billion (65%) were already payed by the public (aprox. 200 Euro per inhabitant per year) -- see: https://www.zukunft-mobilitaet.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/finanzierung-oepnv-deutschland-summen-zusammensetzung.jpg https://www.zukunft-mobilitaet.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/0... (in German).

the8472 4y ago

A token price (9€/m is cheaper than even subsidized region-specific tickets for students or the elderly) likely has some benefits such as making it easy to count interest based on sales. It might also make the inrush a bit more manageable.

dav_Oz 4y ago

I guess one could argue that it is technically "free" for personal use, as tap water is (1 cubic meter (1000 litres) in the Netherlands is about net cost .87€ [0]) if one is not trying to abuse it for a agricultural hobby, a private swimming hall etc. than it actually gets expensive very quick; in the case of a unregistered pipe break (incentivizing inspections) extraordinarily so. The "price" is for ensuring fair use (on such a big scale)/registering the influx; yes, 1€ could also do the trick but in the case of DB AG we are talking about an highly over-bureaucratized ... so one order of magnitude higher and you arrive at the current pricing. [0]https://www.waternet.nl/en/veelgestelde-vragen/tap-water/what-does-a-cubic-metre-of-tap-water-cost/ https://www.waternet.nl/en/veelgestelde-vragen/tap-water/wha...

FabHK 4y ago

> - Less/no expensive accounting Not quite. Many people (eg commuters) have monthly train passes, almost all students have a "Semesterticket" (university enrolment is about 350 EUR every half year, but that includes all public transport in the region). Now, the 9-Euro-Ticket is cheaper than those options, so out of fairness the holders of all those tickets are getting a refund of 3 months worth of their pass minus 3x9=27 EUR, which is a huge administrative burden for the public transport providers and universities. That substantial burden would not have been reduced by having the ticket for free.

VGltZUNvbnN1 4y ago
I am going to need a citation for the substantial burden everything I read is that they are annoyed but its easy to do.
- FabHK 4y ago
  Could well be that the complaining is exaggerated, but there is definitely complaining. > "Theoretically, all students would need to be reimbursed or credited 79.98 EUR each," says [speaker of Bochum University] Dessaul. An enormous administrative effort, because almost 43,000 young people study there. > The AStA (student council) [of Duisburg-Essen University] would have to initiate 40,000 bank transfers [for the refunds]. "This would be an incredible effort, especially given the limited number of people we have in treasury, finance, and on the board, that would be extremely difficult to manage and would probably also take considerable time" https://www.businessinsider.de/politik/deutschland/trotz-bereits-bezahlter-semestertickets-wie-studenten-puenktlich-zum-sommer-an-das-neun-euro-ticket-kommen-koennen-a/ https://www.businessinsider.de/politik/deutschland/trotz-ber...
Escapado 4y ago
You are right, however if it would have been made free and kept free indefinitely this would have been a one-time cost.
- iggldiggl 4y ago

addandsubtract 4y ago

I doubt anyone will be checking tickets in the next three months.