7 ms·

It’s not a funding problem. The US funds infrastructure handsomely. In fact we probably even over-fund it. Unfortunately we get very little back for all that

It’s not a funding problem. The US funds infrastructure handsomely. In fact we probably even over-fund it. Unfortunately we get very little back for all that funding. If you compare costs for rail and airports and bridges in the US to Europe or Asia, we pay for one bridge what other similar countries pay for three, four, or five bridges.

Mountain_Skies 4y ago
Atlanta paid $23 million for a pedestrian bridge over a four lane street that they claimed cost so much because it needed to be completed in time for the Super Bowl. It was closed during the Super Bowl for security reasons.
Arrath 4y ago
You're not at all wrong that we don't see the benefit we should for each dollar spent, and I wish we could see some systemic fixes to address these issues beyond the age old "throw more money at the problem" I will add a fresh anecdote however. I was recently involved in bidding a project for a municipality, it was a FEMA mandated sewer improvement project. There was one respondent to the RFP (ours), that was substantially higher than the Engineer's Estimate. Aspects of the bid are still under review by state offices and FEMA, thus the bid was rejected, and the project will circle back for another round. Was the bid high? Was the Engineer's Estimate low? Both? Why did no other contractors bid on the job? There only being one respondent can certainly have pushed the price higher. I know for a fact that my portion of the work was estimated responsibly, but it was nonetheless expensive due to a tight schedule required by the city, and restrictions placed upon the work by proximity to residences and historic structures of concern. Can the schedule be opened up to allow for less pressure? Can the specifications or restrictions be relaxed? What will entice other parties to bid? Can the review process by outside agencies be sped up to allow for the project to proceed? In my experience, such reviews always eat away at the project lead-up time, without respective time added to the schedule to allow the work to be performed. It's a lose-lose. And I kinda lost what I was even going for here. Anyway, you can see any number of stumbling blocks that can be addressed, for one small sewer project. Expand this to public works across the country and imagine it.
mgkimsal 4y ago
Well... our stuff costs more because we're having to pay so much extra for the social safety nets like universal health insurance... Oh... wait... nm.
- QuercusMax 4y ago
  I think you meant graft and corruption :D
- micv 4y ago
  The US government is also spending massive amounts of healthcare without actually delivering healthcare to way too many people. The whole system is bonkers.
- munk-a 4y ago
  It's funny but up here in Canada employees cost companies a lot less overhead to employ than in the states. Not the bear minimum overhead, mind you, the states is by far the cheapest place to be able to call someone "your employee" without offering any benefits but if you're actually paying for healthcare, life insurance and the like Canadian per employee costs come in quite a bit under those in the US. It's almost like skimping on common human decency social services isn't actually saving anyone any money and just serves to perpetuate a gigantic industry of health insurers and pharmaceutical companies.
oefrha 4y ago
In my experience the productivity of American construction workers seems to be shockingly poor. A few years back a small single-story structure (~5000 sqft) was built near me. Every workday a plethora of workers would show up and make noise 8-5. Somehow took them the better part of a year to finish it. Really beggars belief.
- CryptoBanker 4y ago
  The construction site near me has 4 workers whose only job is to watch trucks going in and out of the site…there is no disbelief coming from me after seeing that
  - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
    In NYC, it's common for cranes to be rented for construction work - the company that owns the crane is responsible for maintenance etc. However, the crane worker's union requires that the contractor performing the building work hire a master mechanic, as well as oilers (no, really) for the crane, as well as the actual crane operator who sits in the cabin and does the work. Usually, these people are not permitted by the crane owner actually to perform any work on the crane at all. By the way, salary for a master mechanic in NYC is around $150,000 p/a.
    - CryptoBanker 4y ago
      This article on MTA construction in NYC gives a good overview of the kind of money that goes to waste due to union worksite staffing requirements https://secondavenuesagas.com/2018/01/01/inside-times-deep-dive-factors-behind-mtas-massive-cost-problems/ https://secondavenuesagas.com/2018/01/01/inside-times-deep-d...
  - Arrath 4y ago
    I've seen sites catch fines for having mud, dirt, or rocks fall from trucks leaving onto the roads, so I get where they're coming from. 4 workers doing it? Jeez.
paulmd 4y ago
It's a complex situation. I have a relative who works for MDOT and apparently for road marking painting there are only 3 contractors in the state who do it. One of them wanted to buy one of the others and only stopped when they realized that being down to 2 contractors would hit the mark for "extreme consolidation" and would allow MDOT to go out-of-state for counter-bids. To some extent the more rules and oversight you put in, the more you chase out any "honest participants". I've seen it personally in federal contracting, the only participants who can get through the bidding process are the exact companies (like the big 5) who you don't want doing your project. The oversight and complexity of the bidding process chases out anyone who is not willing to spend half their time on meetings and contract overhead if that's what the customer is willing to pay for. It's the dead-sea effect but for contracting, if you chase out the good participants and then tighten the noose, you will just end up with worse and worse participant quality on average every time you repeat the process. There's no easy answer.
- cco 4y ago
  > There's no easy answer. Seems like a fairly easy one, MDOT opens a few job reqs for road marking painting, buys some trucks, and paints lines on our roads. Private contractors makes a lot of sense in some situations, but this doesn't seem like one. MDOT knows how many roads need to be marked, how often, etc, why pay a private company to do so?
- mfer 4y ago
  Don't just look at the "big 5". I know people there. A lot of the things people get frustrated about are things MDOT requires them to do. Not long ago I was listening to someone at one of those "big 5" companies complain about how new state rules were radically increasing the time it takes to pave a road while increasing costs, too. All with no quality difference in the end. As a tax payer, they were frustrated by it.
  - paulmd 4y ago
    What specifically? I can run it by that relative and see what he thinks. He's also expressed the inverse to me, that a lot of times they are trying to get the contractors to do things a specific way and the contractors just wanna rush through as fast as they can and get to the next contract. Sometimes, like in most engineering, there are reasons things need to be done a specific way, but building a road isn't really a collaborative thing, they just need to build it the way it was ordered.

Mountain_Skies 4y ago

Atlanta paid $23 million for a pedestrian bridge over a four lane street that they claimed cost so much because it needed to be completed in time for the Super Bowl. It was closed during the Super Bowl for security reasons.

Arrath 4y ago

You're not at all wrong that we don't see the benefit we should for each dollar spent, and I wish we could see some systemic fixes to address these issues beyond the age old "throw more money at the problem" I will add a fresh anecdote however. I was recently involved in bidding a project for a municipality, it was a FEMA mandated sewer improvement project. There was one respondent to the RFP (ours), that was substantially higher than the Engineer's Estimate. Aspects of the bid are still under review by state offices and FEMA, thus the bid was rejected, and the project will circle back for another round. Was the bid high? Was the Engineer's Estimate low? Both? Why did no other contractors bid on the job? There only being one respondent can certainly have pushed the price higher. I know for a fact that my portion of the work was estimated responsibly, but it was nonetheless expensive due to a tight schedule required by the city, and restrictions placed upon the work by proximity to residences and historic structures of concern. Can the schedule be opened up to allow for less pressure? Can the specifications or restrictions be relaxed? What will entice other parties to bid? Can the review process by outside agencies be sped up to allow for the project to proceed? In my experience, such reviews always eat away at the project lead-up time, without respective time added to the schedule to allow the work to be performed. It's a lose-lose. And I kinda lost what I was even going for here. Anyway, you can see any number of stumbling blocks that can be addressed, for one small sewer project. Expand this to public works across the country and imagine it.

mgkimsal 4y ago

Well... our stuff costs more because we're having to pay so much extra for the social safety nets like universal health insurance... Oh... wait... nm.

QuercusMax 4y ago
I think you meant graft and corruption :D
micv 4y ago
The US government is also spending massive amounts of healthcare without actually delivering healthcare to way too many people. The whole system is bonkers.
munk-a 4y ago
It's funny but up here in Canada employees cost companies a lot less overhead to employ than in the states. Not the bear minimum overhead, mind you, the states is by far the cheapest place to be able to call someone "your employee" without offering any benefits but if you're actually paying for healthcare, life insurance and the like Canadian per employee costs come in quite a bit under those in the US. It's almost like skimping on common human decency social services isn't actually saving anyone any money and just serves to perpetuate a gigantic industry of health insurers and pharmaceutical companies.

oefrha 4y ago

In my experience the productivity of American construction workers seems to be shockingly poor. A few years back a small single-story structure (~5000 sqft) was built near me. Every workday a plethora of workers would show up and make noise 8-5. Somehow took them the better part of a year to finish it. Really beggars belief.

CryptoBanker 4y ago
The construction site near me has 4 workers whose only job is to watch trucks going in and out of the site…there is no disbelief coming from me after seeing that
- NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
  In NYC, it's common for cranes to be rented for construction work - the company that owns the crane is responsible for maintenance etc. However, the crane worker's union requires that the contractor performing the building work hire a master mechanic, as well as oilers (no, really) for the crane, as well as the actual crane operator who sits in the cabin and does the work. Usually, these people are not permitted by the crane owner actually to perform any work on the crane at all. By the way, salary for a master mechanic in NYC is around $150,000 p/a.
  - CryptoBanker 4y ago
    This article on MTA construction in NYC gives a good overview of the kind of money that goes to waste due to union worksite staffing requirements https://secondavenuesagas.com/2018/01/01/inside-times-deep-dive-factors-behind-mtas-massive-cost-problems/ https://secondavenuesagas.com/2018/01/01/inside-times-deep-d...
- Arrath 4y ago
  I've seen sites catch fines for having mud, dirt, or rocks fall from trucks leaving onto the roads, so I get where they're coming from. 4 workers doing it? Jeez.

paulmd 4y ago

It's a complex situation. I have a relative who works for MDOT and apparently for road marking painting there are only 3 contractors in the state who do it. One of them wanted to buy one of the others and only stopped when they realized that being down to 2 contractors would hit the mark for "extreme consolidation" and would allow MDOT to go out-of-state for counter-bids. To some extent the more rules and oversight you put in, the more you chase out any "honest participants". I've seen it personally in federal contracting, the only participants who can get through the bidding process are the exact companies (like the big 5) who you don't want doing your project. The oversight and complexity of the bidding process chases out anyone who is not willing to spend half their time on meetings and contract overhead if that's what the customer is willing to pay for. It's the dead-sea effect but for contracting, if you chase out the good participants and then tighten the noose, you will just end up with worse and worse participant quality on average every time you repeat the process. There's no easy answer.

cco 4y ago
> There's no easy answer. Seems like a fairly easy one, MDOT opens a few job reqs for road marking painting, buys some trucks, and paints lines on our roads. Private contractors makes a lot of sense in some situations, but this doesn't seem like one. MDOT knows how many roads need to be marked, how often, etc, why pay a private company to do so?
mfer 4y ago
Don't just look at the "big 5". I know people there. A lot of the things people get frustrated about are things MDOT requires them to do. Not long ago I was listening to someone at one of those "big 5" companies complain about how new state rules were radically increasing the time it takes to pave a road while increasing costs, too. All with no quality difference in the end. As a tax payer, they were frustrated by it.
- paulmd 4y ago
  What specifically? I can run it by that relative and see what he thinks. He's also expressed the inverse to me, that a lot of times they are trying to get the contractors to do things a specific way and the contractors just wanna rush through as fast as they can and get to the next contract. Sometimes, like in most engineering, there are reasons things need to be done a specific way, but building a road isn't really a collaborative thing, they just need to build it the way it was ordered.