5 ms·

It is fantastically frustrating, as it makes wealth-building through home ownership impossible. The land will nominally hold its value, but the $300k+ you spend

by donw 4y ago

It is fantastically frustrating, as it makes wealth-building through home ownership impossible. The land will nominally hold its value, but the $300k+ you spend to build a house literally just... vanishes. This might have made sense back when houses were cheap to build, but now, houses in Japan are probably twice as expensive per unit area compared to the US. Salaries are low as well, so building a house here is basically a one-way ticket to 35 years of wage-slavery. Don't even think about a used house, because they were built to a level of cheapness that defies logic, along with a complete disregard for utility. A 1970s rubber-stamp development home in the US has better design, no joke. Windows, light switches, and walls will be allocated by a pseudo-random algorithm that somehow maximizes inconvenience: "Hmm... what could we do on this wall? I know, a gigantic off-center window that looks directly out upon the wall of the neighbor's house! Let's also make sure the kitchen sink underneath it is also off-center, but differently. That 'sketched by a drunken, retarded misanthrope' effect doesn't just happen on its own: you gotta work for it." "We've got this other wall over here, how can we make it even more useless? We've already sketched in a massive off-center window that looks right into the neighbor's lavatory, but I dunno. Something's missing. I think we left some utility... ah, that's it, we need to drop the window below countertop height." "Remember, electricity is a fad. One 20A circuit is plenty to cover an entire six-meter wall. In the kitchen." Did I also mention that a "big" housing lot is 1/20 of an acre? Usually no yard, just concrete. (You are correct in observing that I have spent way too much time on this over the past year, as I very much would like to buy a home)

throwaway1777 4y ago
Fantastically frustrating to someone with an American point of view. What do the Japanese think about it? Perhaps there’s a different point of view?
- donw 4y ago
  Nope, they hate it, too.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  They spend their lives buying a house that's worth nothing when they die. Nobody likes it.
  - dangus 4y ago
    Japan's home prices have been flat, over decades, which means housing remains relatively affordable: https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-housing-crisis-in-japan-home-prices-stay-flat-11554210002 https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-housing-crisis-in-japan-ho... The West has not kept up with housing demand, which turns homes into more of an investment than they should be in the first place. The CPI adjusted price of a home is over double what it was in the mid-century: https://dqydj.com/historical-home-prices/ https://dqydj.com/historical-home-prices/ If each subsequent generation has decreasing levels of home ownership, spending a higher percentage of their income on housing, the fact that you get to retain the value of your property more easily could be seen as a moot point. You always have to live somewhere, and if the price of your home increases, selling it just means you have to find another place to live that is equally expensive. The only thing this cycle of "investment properties" does is make life worse for the youngest generation. I don't really care what my house will be worth when I'm die, I'll be dead.
    - ekianjo 4y ago
      > I don't really care what my house will be worth when I'm die, I'll be dead. You are completely missing the point. Let's say you have to move when you are in your 60s for any kind of reason. Your properly is absolutely worthless in Japan and you won't be able to buy a new one or even get a loan at that age. You are absolutely hosed.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    So does a renter. Keep paying for something and then end up with nothing. Honestly I see it as anomaly that houses have worth after their useful lifespan.
    - ekianjo 4y ago
      You miss the fact that a renter has flexibility that a home owner does not.
warning26 4y ago
> It is fantastically frustrating, as it makes wealth-building through home ownership impossible TBH this seems more like a feature than a bug. Home ownership should be less about investment income and more about, well, owning a home.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  does not mean that it's normal that your house value goes to zero, no matter how well built it is.
  - asiachick 4y ago
    yes, exactly the same as your second biggest purchase, Your car. I don't know what the "right" thing is but AFAIK, Tokyo is way more affordable than SF, NYC, London. My guess is that's in part because housing is not an investment so they're is less incentive to lobby for policies that kept it going up.
    - ekianjo 4y ago
      Salaries are way lower in tokyo than sf and london whic explains everything
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Does it get any better with age? House or buildings themselves unless very special are depreciating assets and should really be treated as such. Land around might get more demand, but in general house itself won't improve with age.
    - ekianjo 4y ago
      if its built in stone it wont get worse in 20 years.
      - Ekaros 4y ago
        So there is no wear and tear of surface materials? No appliances break? No slow corrosion or build up in water pipes? Possible small leaks and humidity causing mould growth?
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
>but the $300k+ Japanese homes aren't that expensive unless you want a very big space / luxurious place. >houses in Japan are probably twice as expensive per unit area compared to the US You might be surprised this goes for most of the world. The US is spoiled in regards to cost per square meter after adjusting for office worker salary (let alone tech salaries). Until you go to the big cities, where the problems are far, far worse than e.g. Tokyo. >Salaries are low as well Salaries in most of Japan aren't even that low when compared to the remainder of the West. You can find quite a few anecdotes pointing out the opposite, calling Japan more affordable if anything (truth probably being somewhere in the middle). Try looking in big cities around most of Europe and even Canada. You'll find similar issues, both in salaries and in housing prices vs housing sizes.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  Also, because of zoning regulations having minimum lot sizes, it is hard to find new construction in US cities that has comparable square footage, so you can’t actually take advantage of the lower sq ft cost by keeping the same amount of space.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  Canadians and Australians have housing sizes comparable to the states.
  - ido 4y ago
    Yes, and most of the world (and even most of developed world) are neither Canadian, Australian or American. Europe and Asia tend to have smaller homes & the latter alone accounts for more than half the world's population.
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    And you can find houses just as big in Japan, and in large parts of Europe. Not the point. Compare developer salaries with square meter prices. Anyone complaining about Japan being unaffordable clearly doesn't understand the problem is almost universal among developed countries. The only way you're getting past that is having a high income. Of course it's going to seem small for US developers used to being in the upper echelons of the middle class in a country with relatively low prices compared to CoL. The moment you're not an office worker and/or trying to live close to the city to not have a daily commute over an hour, you're pretty much in the same position as anywhere else in the developed world.
dangus 4y ago
> It is fantastically frustrating, as it makes wealth-building through home ownership impossible I think this could bring up a debate: should we expect personal home ownership be a wealth-building tool? Is it the most ideal method of building personal wealth? The expectation that our home is an investment on top of being a place to live could perhaps be one of the factors in areas with a housing affordability crisis. It's in the best interest of the current homeowner to discourage development that would reduce costs for other buyers. > houses in Japan are probably twice as expensive per unit area compared to the US I don't see this as particularly alarming, as homes built in the US consume and waste a tremendous amount of space. I think about the typical single family suburban home's attached 2 or 3 car garage and how much of the home's sheltered space that feature takes up. I also think about the American expectation for luxuries like walk-in closets, having more bathrooms than people, and rooms dedicated to "man caves" and other single-use pursuits. To me, the American suburban lifestyle represents a place to store excess goods consumption – the home is a place to store a bunch of stuff that ends up in the landfill. Tokyo fits the entire population of California in an area the size of LA County, and I personally consider that to be more of a good thing than a bad thing. When we spread out we waste finite resources and emit carbon dioxide with personal vehicle travel and destroy more natural habitat. > Did I also mention that a "big" housing lot is 1/20 of an acre? Usually no yard, just concrete. Much of the overall plot of North American homes are consumed by driveways, yards, and dead space between homes that are usually completely unused for most of the day. Yards and driveways are major contributors to car dependence and poor public transit in North America. Yards usually offer very little utility and sit unused most of the day, offering zero habitat for animals or people. They reduce walkability of neighborhoods by increasing walking distances between homes and in the street grid. "But where will my kids play?" Probably at a communal playground, park, sports field, and really they're probably not going to be all that excited by an empty field in the front of your house. https://twitter.com/officialmitchll/status/1382709940352135175 https://twitter.com/officialmitchll/status/13827099403521351... Finally, I'll point out that to someone in a vertical housing unit like a residential tower, ground acreage is entirely irrelevant. I don't think the owner of the penthouse unit of 432 Park Avenue is upset that their home represents almost no acreage once the building's plot is divided by the quantity of residents. I'll drop a couple of articles that discuss some of the negatives of misusing open space in urban planning: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/7/23/the-problem-of-forcing-developers-to-provide-open-space https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/7/23/the-problem-of... https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/the-clamor-for-open-space-is-constant-but-sometimes-its-the-wrong-way-to-go/2016/01/14/68435328-b96f-11e5-99f3-184bc379b12d_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/the-clamor-for-ope... "Designing green spaces nobody wants" in the article below: https://www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2015/jul/28/urban-design-mistakes-unhealthy-inactive-communities https://www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2015/jul/28/urba...
presentation 4y ago
At least it's possible for a budget-conscious person to rent a simple apartment within a 10 minute commute of central Tokyo for ~$500. Try doing that in San Francisco. Different expectations

by donw 4y ago

throwaway1777 4y ago

Fantastically frustrating to someone with an American point of view. What do the Japanese think about it? Perhaps there’s a different point of view?

donw 4y ago
Nope, they hate it, too.
ekianjo 4y ago
They spend their lives buying a house that's worth nothing when they die. Nobody likes it.
- dangus 4y ago
  Japan's home prices have been flat, over decades, which means housing remains relatively affordable: https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-housing-crisis-in-japan-home-prices-stay-flat-11554210002 https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-housing-crisis-in-japan-ho... The West has not kept up with housing demand, which turns homes into more of an investment than they should be in the first place. The CPI adjusted price of a home is over double what it was in the mid-century: https://dqydj.com/historical-home-prices/ https://dqydj.com/historical-home-prices/ If each subsequent generation has decreasing levels of home ownership, spending a higher percentage of their income on housing, the fact that you get to retain the value of your property more easily could be seen as a moot point. You always have to live somewhere, and if the price of your home increases, selling it just means you have to find another place to live that is equally expensive. The only thing this cycle of "investment properties" does is make life worse for the youngest generation. I don't really care what my house will be worth when I'm die, I'll be dead.
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    > I don't really care what my house will be worth when I'm die, I'll be dead. You are completely missing the point. Let's say you have to move when you are in your 60s for any kind of reason. Your properly is absolutely worthless in Japan and you won't be able to buy a new one or even get a loan at that age. You are absolutely hosed.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  So does a renter. Keep paying for something and then end up with nothing. Honestly I see it as anomaly that houses have worth after their useful lifespan.
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    You miss the fact that a renter has flexibility that a home owner does not.

warning26 4y ago

> It is fantastically frustrating, as it makes wealth-building through home ownership impossible TBH this seems more like a feature than a bug. Home ownership should be less about investment income and more about, well, owning a home.

ekianjo 4y ago
does not mean that it's normal that your house value goes to zero, no matter how well built it is.
- asiachick 4y ago
  yes, exactly the same as your second biggest purchase, Your car. I don't know what the "right" thing is but AFAIK, Tokyo is way more affordable than SF, NYC, London. My guess is that's in part because housing is not an investment so they're is less incentive to lobby for policies that kept it going up.
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    Salaries are way lower in tokyo than sf and london whic explains everything
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Does it get any better with age? House or buildings themselves unless very special are depreciating assets and should really be treated as such. Land around might get more demand, but in general house itself won't improve with age.
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    if its built in stone it wont get worse in 20 years.
    - Ekaros 4y ago
      So there is no wear and tear of surface materials? No appliances break? No slow corrosion or build up in water pipes? Possible small leaks and humidity causing mould growth?

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

>but the $300k+ Japanese homes aren't that expensive unless you want a very big space / luxurious place. >houses in Japan are probably twice as expensive per unit area compared to the US You might be surprised this goes for most of the world. The US is spoiled in regards to cost per square meter after adjusting for office worker salary (let alone tech salaries). Until you go to the big cities, where the problems are far, far worse than e.g. Tokyo. >Salaries are low as well Salaries in most of Japan aren't even that low when compared to the remainder of the West. You can find quite a few anecdotes pointing out the opposite, calling Japan more affordable if anything (truth probably being somewhere in the middle). Try looking in big cities around most of Europe and even Canada. You'll find similar issues, both in salaries and in housing prices vs housing sizes.

bobthepanda 4y ago
Also, because of zoning regulations having minimum lot sizes, it is hard to find new construction in US cities that has comparable square footage, so you can’t actually take advantage of the lower sq ft cost by keeping the same amount of space.
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
Canadians and Australians have housing sizes comparable to the states.
- ido 4y ago
  Yes, and most of the world (and even most of developed world) are neither Canadian, Australian or American. Europe and Asia tend to have smaller homes & the latter alone accounts for more than half the world's population.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  And you can find houses just as big in Japan, and in large parts of Europe. Not the point. Compare developer salaries with square meter prices. Anyone complaining about Japan being unaffordable clearly doesn't understand the problem is almost universal among developed countries. The only way you're getting past that is having a high income. Of course it's going to seem small for US developers used to being in the upper echelons of the middle class in a country with relatively low prices compared to CoL. The moment you're not an office worker and/or trying to live close to the city to not have a daily commute over an hour, you're pretty much in the same position as anywhere else in the developed world.

dangus 4y ago

> It is fantastically frustrating, as it makes wealth-building through home ownership impossible I think this could bring up a debate: should we expect personal home ownership be a wealth-building tool? Is it the most ideal method of building personal wealth? The expectation that our home is an investment on top of being a place to live could perhaps be one of the factors in areas with a housing affordability crisis. It's in the best interest of the current homeowner to discourage development that would reduce costs for other buyers. > houses in Japan are probably twice as expensive per unit area compared to the US I don't see this as particularly alarming, as homes built in the US consume and waste a tremendous amount of space. I think about the typical single family suburban home's attached 2 or 3 car garage and how much of the home's sheltered space that feature takes up. I also think about the American expectation for luxuries like walk-in closets, having more bathrooms than people, and rooms dedicated to "man caves" and other single-use pursuits. To me, the American suburban lifestyle represents a place to store excess goods consumption – the home is a place to store a bunch of stuff that ends up in the landfill. Tokyo fits the entire population of California in an area the size of LA County, and I personally consider that to be more of a good thing than a bad thing. When we spread out we waste finite resources and emit carbon dioxide with personal vehicle travel and destroy more natural habitat. > Did I also mention that a "big" housing lot is 1/20 of an acre? Usually no yard, just concrete. Much of the overall plot of North American homes are consumed by driveways, yards, and dead space between homes that are usually completely unused for most of the day. Yards and driveways are major contributors to car dependence and poor public transit in North America. Yards usually offer very little utility and sit unused most of the day, offering zero habitat for animals or people. They reduce walkability of neighborhoods by increasing walking distances between homes and in the street grid. "But where will my kids play?" Probably at a communal playground, park, sports field, and really they're probably not going to be all that excited by an empty field in the front of your house. https://twitter.com/officialmitchll/status/1382709940352135175 https://twitter.com/officialmitchll/status/13827099403521351... Finally, I'll point out that to someone in a vertical housing unit like a residential tower, ground acreage is entirely irrelevant. I don't think the owner of the penthouse unit of 432 Park Avenue is upset that their home represents almost no acreage once the building's plot is divided by the quantity of residents. I'll drop a couple of articles that discuss some of the negatives of misusing open space in urban planning: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/7/23/the-problem-of-forcing-developers-to-provide-open-space https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/7/23/the-problem-of... https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/the-clamor-for-open-space-is-constant-but-sometimes-its-the-wrong-way-to-go/2016/01/14/68435328-b96f-11e5-99f3-184bc379b12d_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/the-clamor-for-ope... "Designing green spaces nobody wants" in the article below: https://www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2015/jul/28/urban-design-mistakes-unhealthy-inactive-communities https://www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2015/jul/28/urba...

presentation 4y ago

At least it's possible for a budget-conscious person to rent a simple apartment within a 10 minute commute of central Tokyo for ~$500. Try doing that in San Francisco. Different expectations