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For those wondering about the cost... I found it elsewhere: "The most recent rebuilding required 14,000 cypress timbers, 25,000 sheaves of reeds, took 9 years

by pcurve 4y ago

For those wondering about the cost... I found it elsewhere: "The most recent rebuilding required 14,000 cypress timbers, 25,000 sheaves of reeds, took 9 years to complete, and cost over $500 million." "Obtaining large enough timber posts, for instance, requires trees 300 to 500 years old" I seriously hope they can give it a rest for a while.

earleybird 4y ago
There are 300+ yr old timber frame barns etc in Europe, so it seems to be plausibly a net zero impact.
- pcurve 4y ago
  Hrm, I figured Japanese is doing this in a sustainable way, but I can't help but wonder about the half a billion dollar price tag. It's a massive public works project since it's partly tax funded that benefits particular sectors. Since they've been doing it for 1400 years, superstitiously inclined people will be adamantly against making changes to the interval.
  - shagie 4y ago
    From the Long Now post: > As we walked from arch to arch, Maholo explained that the forest here had historically been used exclusively to harvest timbers for all the shrines, but over the last millennia they had been harvested too heavily for various war efforts, or lost in fire. Since the beginning of this century the shrines’ caretakers have been bringing these forests back, and expect them to be self-sustaining again within the next two or three rebuilding periods — 40 to 60 years from now. Part of this is also a preservation of skills. It ensures that the artisans who work on it have a consistent demand for their skills.
  - henearkr 4y ago
    Forestry in Japan is a disaster nowadays. Both driven by the lack of wood on the market and by the bad habit of "accounting fraud" in Japan -- the count of cut trees is systematically under-reported by the timber corporations. This was revealed in particular after the huge landslides of 2021, as a forest holding together the soil had been silently harvested much more than what was reported.
ricardobeat 4y ago
Is that for all 80000 shrines? That’s 6k per unit. I’m sure the USA builds more backyard sheds than that, at a higher price tag, every year.
- denkmoon 4y ago
  On the other hand, most backyard sheds don't use materials that take 300-500 years to produce. Well, except the petro-plastics...
  - masklinn 4y ago
    As the article notes, but for the war the surrounding forest is tended and maintained just for that purpose.
- pcurve 4y ago
  no, it's just that particular shrine... Ise Shrine. https://theprepared.org/features-feed/ise-jingu-and-the-pyramid-of-enabling-technologies#:~:text=The%20most%20recent%20rebuilding%20required,and%20cost%20over%20%24500%20million https://theprepared.org/features-feed/ise-jingu-and-the-pyra.... 80,000 is number of shrine in the entire region.
morninglight 4y ago
The cost is minuscule compared to the ROI. Religion in Japan is big business, just like your home country. Rest assured that when you visit a shrine in Japan, the first thing to greet you will be an offering box. .
- pcurve 4y ago
  Oh yeah tell me about it. Every single shrine I hit in Kyoto... it was 500-600 yen.. and this was when exchange rate was 90 yen per dollar!
  - alephnan 4y ago
    You're confusing temples with shrines.
  - SapporoChris 4y ago
    shrines can be happy with an offering as little as 5 yen. https://guidable.co/culture/japanese-shrines-how-much-donation-money-should-we-offer/ https://guidable.co/culture/japanese-shrines-how-much-donati... https://japantoday.com/category/features/lifestyle/busting-one-of-the-biggest-myths-about-the-%C2%A55-coin-and-shrine-offerings-in-japan https://japantoday.com/category/features/lifestyle/busting-o...
    - pcurve 4y ago
      Offering is optional. Entrance fee is not. Most major temples have mandatory entrance fee
- alephnan 4y ago
  > The cost is minuscule compared to the ROI. Religion in Japan is big business, just like your home country. That's a very western way of looking at things. Alternatively, it can be viewed as a community crowdsourcing and preserving culture.
  - tinco 4y ago
Aeolun 4y ago
This makes it sound like that $500 million is just the cost of reconstruction of one shrine. > Every 20 years exact copies of Naiku, Geku, and 14 other shrines are built on empty sites next to the existing structures > the rebuilding also includes creating exact copies of thousands of ceremonial treasures and artifacts But the real value in this whole deal is that the entire reconstruction happens using traditional techniques, passing them on to the next generation. $500 million feels like a steal for preserving your cultural heritage like that.

by pcurve 4y ago

earleybird 4y ago

There are 300+ yr old timber frame barns etc in Europe, so it seems to be plausibly a net zero impact.

pcurve 4y ago
Hrm, I figured Japanese is doing this in a sustainable way, but I can't help but wonder about the half a billion dollar price tag. It's a massive public works project since it's partly tax funded that benefits particular sectors. Since they've been doing it for 1400 years, superstitiously inclined people will be adamantly against making changes to the interval.
- shagie 4y ago
  From the Long Now post: > As we walked from arch to arch, Maholo explained that the forest here had historically been used exclusively to harvest timbers for all the shrines, but over the last millennia they had been harvested too heavily for various war efforts, or lost in fire. Since the beginning of this century the shrines’ caretakers have been bringing these forests back, and expect them to be self-sustaining again within the next two or three rebuilding periods — 40 to 60 years from now. Part of this is also a preservation of skills. It ensures that the artisans who work on it have a consistent demand for their skills.
- henearkr 4y ago
  Forestry in Japan is a disaster nowadays. Both driven by the lack of wood on the market and by the bad habit of "accounting fraud" in Japan -- the count of cut trees is systematically under-reported by the timber corporations. This was revealed in particular after the huge landslides of 2021, as a forest holding together the soil had been silently harvested much more than what was reported.

ricardobeat 4y ago

Is that for all 80000 shrines? That’s 6k per unit. I’m sure the USA builds more backyard sheds than that, at a higher price tag, every year.

denkmoon 4y ago
On the other hand, most backyard sheds don't use materials that take 300-500 years to produce. Well, except the petro-plastics...
- masklinn 4y ago
  As the article notes, but for the war the surrounding forest is tended and maintained just for that purpose.
pcurve 4y ago
no, it's just that particular shrine... Ise Shrine. https://theprepared.org/features-feed/ise-jingu-and-the-pyramid-of-enabling-technologies#:~:text=The%20most%20recent%20rebuilding%20required,and%20cost%20over%20%24500%20million https://theprepared.org/features-feed/ise-jingu-and-the-pyra.... 80,000 is number of shrine in the entire region.

morninglight 4y ago

The cost is minuscule compared to the ROI. Religion in Japan is big business, just like your home country. Rest assured that when you visit a shrine in Japan, the first thing to greet you will be an offering box. .

pcurve 4y ago
Oh yeah tell me about it. Every single shrine I hit in Kyoto... it was 500-600 yen.. and this was when exchange rate was 90 yen per dollar!
- alephnan 4y ago
  You're confusing temples with shrines.
- SapporoChris 4y ago
  shrines can be happy with an offering as little as 5 yen. https://guidable.co/culture/japanese-shrines-how-much-donation-money-should-we-offer/ https://guidable.co/culture/japanese-shrines-how-much-donati... https://japantoday.com/category/features/lifestyle/busting-one-of-the-biggest-myths-about-the-%C2%A55-coin-and-shrine-offerings-in-japan https://japantoday.com/category/features/lifestyle/busting-o...
  - pcurve 4y ago
    Offering is optional. Entrance fee is not. Most major temples have mandatory entrance fee
alephnan 4y ago
> The cost is minuscule compared to the ROI. Religion in Japan is big business, just like your home country. That's a very western way of looking at things. Alternatively, it can be viewed as a community crowdsourcing and preserving culture.
- tinco 4y ago

Aeolun 4y ago

This makes it sound like that $500 million is just the cost of reconstruction of one shrine. > Every 20 years exact copies of Naiku, Geku, and 14 other shrines are built on empty sites next to the existing structures > the rebuilding also includes creating exact copies of thousands of ceremonial treasures and artifacts But the real value in this whole deal is that the entire reconstruction happens using traditional techniques, passing them on to the next generation. $500 million feels like a steal for preserving your cultural heritage like that.