4 ms·

It was pointed out to me, a millenial, that Social Security was created and administered in the Depression era before computers even existed. To think that they

It was pointed out to me, a millenial, that Social Security was created and administered in the Depression era before computers even existed. To think that they somehow created a working system without the tech that we throw at it today is interesting.

SllX 4y ago
You don’t need computers to administer entitlement programs; but computers are implemented as labor saving devices.
jfk13 4y ago
My (96 year old) father is quite sure that every such system worked far better before computers got involved. In some cases, perhaps he's right.
- whateveracct 4y ago
  Paper works great in a lot of ways. I'm using my printer & notebooks more than ever nowadays.
  - ge96 4y ago
    Haha I just dropped $60+ for black/color cartridges, I'll probably print a couple of docs and need to get new ones again. So annoying. I bought HP 61s
    - mminer237 4y ago
      Buy a toner printer instead?
      - ge96 4y ago
        I'll look into that, don't know the difference offhand
        colejohnson66 4y ago
        Toner is cheaper per page than ink. But the quality of photo prints will be slightly better with inkjets. If you never print photos (on photo paper), a toner printer is perfect.
        rcostin2k2 4y ago
        ...and it never dries, if unused.
    - niij 4y ago
      Take them out when not using the printer and store them with the plastic/sponge covers on. Inkjet carts last much longer that way.
      - ge96 4y ago
        that's an interesting though, it drips or something while just sitting there?
    - wincy 4y ago
      I just bought an Epson Ecotank printer. Supposed to have the advantages of a laser jet but not be nearly as expensive refills. The printer itself was $200, though.
- donmcronald 4y ago
  I bet he's right in a lot of cases. I think the difference would be that back then you had actual humans making every decision and everything was local so the social and cultural expectations from everyone involved would have been more predictable. Plus, I imagine everyone made more effort to be civil when interacting because everything was face-to-face.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  True, because those systems were designed for pre-computer technologies, and all we did when computers came along was put the same systems not designed for computers on computers. This is how we ended up using mice to sign signatures on 8x11 PDF forms that then have to go through an OCR to be input into other computer systems.
- tmp_anon_22 4y ago
  Better for the end-user, not better for administrators and accountants on the side of government services.
- est31 4y ago
  I wonder if it's survivorship bias. Same as not every old building has survived the times, only the amazing ones did, maybe just the "amazing" government systems have survived, while the others have long since become forgotten. I put amazing into quotes because SSNs have plenty of problems, but at least they are successful in that they are used everywhere. This in turn creates the impression that government systems used to be better than they are now.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- robocat 4y ago
  In some countries, the modern systems are byzantine. In New Zealand, which is similar population to say Oregon, the modern systems absolutely spank the old systems. Tax: the majority of people don’t need to file a tax return, instead it is all automatic. You only file if you have income from uncommon sources, such as foreign investments. Any questions, and I can call my tax department, and I get a person who answers the phone call, and answers the difficult questions correctly. They don’t treat you like a criminal: 10 years ago I personally did five years of unfiled tax returns simultaneously . . . I rang and asked questions of the tax department, and got my refunds without any trouble. I believe you can trust the tax department (YMMV). Local government: I can walk in to their help desk and ask questions for free about the council rules and processes. I admit the help desk does not provide legally binding opinions, instead you need to go through formal processes. The local council may be slow and difficult for some things, but the process is fairly transparent and you can get closure on questions if you persist. The local council has restrictions on what it can do. There are automatic rights to house development, so if you follow the planning rules (setbacks, recession planes, etcetera), then it is unlikely for neighbours or local government to be able to chuck a spanner into your plans to build on your own property. Passport renewal: last time I did it over the internet. Mostly the government interactions New Zealand at least functional, and sometimes they are even pleasant. The exception is our legal system, which is still mostly paper based, and archaic. Although anecdotally it works better than the US system.
- jjtheblunt 4y ago
  I have a theory about your dad's observation: i bet it's because a physically implemented system can't afford being realized through pulling in deeply nested dependencies, and their bugs and weird corner cases.
- salawat 4y ago
  This os because procedures were repeatable, doable by a layman, and persisted in a way that was trivial to navigate. (Paper file navigation is so easy my Gram can do it faster than me!) Computers added: -Hardware abstraction -Software abstraction -Storage abstraction -Search abstraction -Indexing abstraction -Networking abstraction -Legislative abstraction (When you have a computer to program once instead of a workforce to train, people are more willing to complicate things instead of leaving well enough alone) Honestly, I can totally believe it worked better.
_moof 4y ago
We also got to the moon without calculators. (This used to be well-known but may not be anymore - I'm not sure. Forgive me if I'm saying something obvious.) Pretty incredible how unnecessary most of our "technology" really is. Can't find it now but one of my all-time favorite engineering memes goes something like, "modern engineer, cries when Matlab crashes; Roman engineer, built aqueducts by eyeballing them."
- Melatonic 4y ago
  We had computers - they were just teams of women crunching numbers in a room somewhere
  - imwillofficial 4y ago
    It wasn’t only women. Not cool totally cut out a major group of people who contributed to such a milestone.
    - alar44 4y ago
      I love the fact that this so so dear to you that you feel you must comment but fail to mention who you think should be included.
      - imwillofficial 4y ago
        An entire gender group that contributed.
        alar44 4y ago
        Which one?
        imwillofficial 4y ago
        Men, are you saying no men contributed to calculations?

SllX 4y ago

You don’t need computers to administer entitlement programs; but computers are implemented as labor saving devices.

jfk13 4y ago

My (96 year old) father is quite sure that every such system worked far better before computers got involved. In some cases, perhaps he's right.

whateveracct 4y ago
Paper works great in a lot of ways. I'm using my printer & notebooks more than ever nowadays.
- ge96 4y ago
  Haha I just dropped $60+ for black/color cartridges, I'll probably print a couple of docs and need to get new ones again. So annoying. I bought HP 61s
  - mminer237 4y ago
    Buy a toner printer instead?
    - ge96 4y ago
      I'll look into that, don't know the difference offhand
      - colejohnson66 4y ago
        Toner is cheaper per page than ink. But the quality of photo prints will be slightly better with inkjets. If you never print photos (on photo paper), a toner printer is perfect.
        rcostin2k2 4y ago
        ...and it never dries, if unused.
  - niij 4y ago
    Take them out when not using the printer and store them with the plastic/sponge covers on. Inkjet carts last much longer that way.
    - ge96 4y ago
      that's an interesting though, it drips or something while just sitting there?
  - wincy 4y ago
    I just bought an Epson Ecotank printer. Supposed to have the advantages of a laser jet but not be nearly as expensive refills. The printer itself was $200, though.
donmcronald 4y ago
I bet he's right in a lot of cases. I think the difference would be that back then you had actual humans making every decision and everything was local so the social and cultural expectations from everyone involved would have been more predictable. Plus, I imagine everyone made more effort to be civil when interacting because everything was face-to-face.
ModernMech 4y ago
True, because those systems were designed for pre-computer technologies, and all we did when computers came along was put the same systems not designed for computers on computers. This is how we ended up using mice to sign signatures on 8x11 PDF forms that then have to go through an OCR to be input into other computer systems.
tmp_anon_22 4y ago
Better for the end-user, not better for administrators and accountants on the side of government services.
est31 4y ago
I wonder if it's survivorship bias. Same as not every old building has survived the times, only the amazing ones did, maybe just the "amazing" government systems have survived, while the others have long since become forgotten. I put amazing into quotes because SSNs have plenty of problems, but at least they are successful in that they are used everywhere. This in turn creates the impression that government systems used to be better than they are now.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
robocat 4y ago
In some countries, the modern systems are byzantine. In New Zealand, which is similar population to say Oregon, the modern systems absolutely spank the old systems. Tax: the majority of people don’t need to file a tax return, instead it is all automatic. You only file if you have income from uncommon sources, such as foreign investments. Any questions, and I can call my tax department, and I get a person who answers the phone call, and answers the difficult questions correctly. They don’t treat you like a criminal: 10 years ago I personally did five years of unfiled tax returns simultaneously . . . I rang and asked questions of the tax department, and got my refunds without any trouble. I believe you can trust the tax department (YMMV). Local government: I can walk in to their help desk and ask questions for free about the council rules and processes. I admit the help desk does not provide legally binding opinions, instead you need to go through formal processes. The local council may be slow and difficult for some things, but the process is fairly transparent and you can get closure on questions if you persist. The local council has restrictions on what it can do. There are automatic rights to house development, so if you follow the planning rules (setbacks, recession planes, etcetera), then it is unlikely for neighbours or local government to be able to chuck a spanner into your plans to build on your own property. Passport renewal: last time I did it over the internet. Mostly the government interactions New Zealand at least functional, and sometimes they are even pleasant. The exception is our legal system, which is still mostly paper based, and archaic. Although anecdotally it works better than the US system.
jjtheblunt 4y ago
I have a theory about your dad's observation: i bet it's because a physically implemented system can't afford being realized through pulling in deeply nested dependencies, and their bugs and weird corner cases.
salawat 4y ago
This os because procedures were repeatable, doable by a layman, and persisted in a way that was trivial to navigate. (Paper file navigation is so easy my Gram can do it faster than me!) Computers added: -Hardware abstraction -Software abstraction -Storage abstraction -Search abstraction -Indexing abstraction -Networking abstraction -Legislative abstraction (When you have a computer to program once instead of a workforce to train, people are more willing to complicate things instead of leaving well enough alone) Honestly, I can totally believe it worked better.

_moof 4y ago

We also got to the moon without calculators. (This used to be well-known but may not be anymore - I'm not sure. Forgive me if I'm saying something obvious.) Pretty incredible how unnecessary most of our "technology" really is. Can't find it now but one of my all-time favorite engineering memes goes something like, "modern engineer, cries when Matlab crashes; Roman engineer, built aqueducts by eyeballing them."

Melatonic 4y ago
We had computers - they were just teams of women crunching numbers in a room somewhere
- imwillofficial 4y ago
  It wasn’t only women. Not cool totally cut out a major group of people who contributed to such a milestone.
  - alar44 4y ago
    I love the fact that this so so dear to you that you feel you must comment but fail to mention who you think should be included.
    - imwillofficial 4y ago
      An entire gender group that contributed.
      - alar44 4y ago
        Which one?
        imwillofficial 4y ago
        Men, are you saying no men contributed to calculations?