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Maintaining and extending legacy code is, in many ways, orthogonal to its underlying language. You can make a 2x2 matrix with "legacy code quality" on one axis

Maintaining and extending legacy code is, in many ways, orthogonal to its underlying language. You can make a 2x2 matrix with "legacy code quality" on one axis, and "language percieved desireability" on the other axis. You can make truckloads of money, earn much respect, with nearly zero negative ageism, in at least one of those quadrants. "Building new" versus "maintaining existing" are different mindsets, and often a choice. For older people just getting started, "maintaining existing" is often the wiser first decision. From there, the particular mix of language and tech stack count, and often the more obscure the better. Find a good niche.

fartcannon 4y ago
Do you have any real world examples of this?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- s_dev 4y ago
  COBOL Devs probably earn more than React Devs.
  - eatonphil 4y ago
    Every time I've gone looking for COBOL jobs on job sites out of curiosity I always see them paying pretty poorly. On Glassdoor for Cobol [0] the standard range is $54k to $179k (presumably in NYC metro where I am) with a reported maximum of $306k. The standard range for React [1] is $49k to $257k with a reported maximum of $550k. I'm not saying Glassdoor is perfect but better to have these discussions based on some measured data than just common mantra that legacy is boring but pays better. [0] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/cobol-programmer-salary-SRCH_KO0,16.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/cobol-programmer-salary-S... [1] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/react-developer-salary-SRCH_KO0,15.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/react-developer-salary-SR...
    - Juliate 4y ago
      (seen from France) Those are only public bids, and not everything goes through public channels. Companies working with COBOL (or things like AS400) do so because they've been using it for some time already. So they mostly already know the networks of professionals they will hire for the job, and that's often their own past employees who went freelance, or keep contracting after legal retirement kicks in. Professionals who also act as hiring agents for their replacements.
      - eatonphil 4y ago
        That's good to know. But for the purposes of people considering a new career wouldn't their position be basically the same as what you see publicly reported on Glassdoor? (assuming there's not some bias like people who use COBOL are less likely to also use Glassdoor and enter salaries there) If you're starting a new career you wouldn't have a network.
        Juliate 4y ago
        If you're starting a new career, I'm not sure the info you will find on Glassdoor will speak much to you either (or, not as much as when you already have had one or two positions - because then you know how to interpret some signals companies broadcast through their ads, or their employees reports). And looking after COBOL (or an old tech, without having been introduced to it before) as an entry job is a bit peculiar. Better looking after the companies that still need it, understanding why, and then going through them for specific jobs, linked or not to COBOL. I understand the appeal of getting into it for the technology or the money, but getting into it for the problems and how to solve them first will open many more paths (and as much if not more money).
    - pc86 4y ago
      How many of those React jobs include RSUs from privately owned companies? I would venture that approximately 100% of the COBOL jobs that's all cash compensation/salary.
      - 4y ago
  - fdgsdfogijq 4y ago
    Honestly, I really doubt it. This COBOL meme, is just that, a meme. Highest paid devs (>400k) generally work with brand new technology
  - mywittyname 4y ago
    COBOL devs have been at their same job for 10+ years. So take whatever the average dev wage was 10 years ago, and add 3% raises. Zip Recruiter puts average salaries at around $88k/yr with the top 10% making over $110k. Payscale puts salaries a little lower than that. The of the few job postings I see, none have salary information listed -- in my experience, that tends to mean the salaries are low or average. And if you're a COBOL engineer, jobs opportunities are slim, even in a region with a large number of older banks and insurance companies (read: prime COBOL industries). There's like one job each in areas like Omaha, NE; Alpharetta, GA; Montgomery County, AL; Chattanooga, TN; Milan, IL; Feather South, FL; etc. In other words, a bunch of places nobody has ever heard of.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      The places that need to replace COBOL devs aging out of the work force with apps still running are among the places least likely to practice age discrimination to start with (and even if they were inclined to, there's not a pipeline of fresh out of college/bootcamp COBOL devs.) (C#/Java have lots more opportunities at the same type of workplaces, so aren't bad choices but also lots more competition at all experience levels and from more traditional career paths; still, late-entrants with relative domain expertise can be quite competitive with pure programmers.)
- askonomm 4y ago
  I don't want to toot my own horn, but I wrote a blog post about being a niche programmer that you may or may not find useful: https://ano.ee/blog/the-niche-programmer https://ano.ee/blog/the-niche-programmer
  - fartcannon 4y ago
    I am an extremely niche programmer myself so I'll check it, thanks!

fartcannon 4y ago

Do you have any real world examples of this?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
s_dev 4y ago
COBOL Devs probably earn more than React Devs.
- eatonphil 4y ago
  Every time I've gone looking for COBOL jobs on job sites out of curiosity I always see them paying pretty poorly. On Glassdoor for Cobol [0] the standard range is $54k to $179k (presumably in NYC metro where I am) with a reported maximum of $306k. The standard range for React [1] is $49k to $257k with a reported maximum of $550k. I'm not saying Glassdoor is perfect but better to have these discussions based on some measured data than just common mantra that legacy is boring but pays better. [0] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/cobol-programmer-salary-SRCH_KO0,16.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/cobol-programmer-salary-S... [1] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/react-developer-salary-SRCH_KO0,15.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/react-developer-salary-SR...
  - Juliate 4y ago
    (seen from France) Those are only public bids, and not everything goes through public channels. Companies working with COBOL (or things like AS400) do so because they've been using it for some time already. So they mostly already know the networks of professionals they will hire for the job, and that's often their own past employees who went freelance, or keep contracting after legal retirement kicks in. Professionals who also act as hiring agents for their replacements.
    - eatonphil 4y ago
      That's good to know. But for the purposes of people considering a new career wouldn't their position be basically the same as what you see publicly reported on Glassdoor? (assuming there's not some bias like people who use COBOL are less likely to also use Glassdoor and enter salaries there) If you're starting a new career you wouldn't have a network.
      - Juliate 4y ago
        If you're starting a new career, I'm not sure the info you will find on Glassdoor will speak much to you either (or, not as much as when you already have had one or two positions - because then you know how to interpret some signals companies broadcast through their ads, or their employees reports). And looking after COBOL (or an old tech, without having been introduced to it before) as an entry job is a bit peculiar. Better looking after the companies that still need it, understanding why, and then going through them for specific jobs, linked or not to COBOL. I understand the appeal of getting into it for the technology or the money, but getting into it for the problems and how to solve them first will open many more paths (and as much if not more money).
  - pc86 4y ago
    How many of those React jobs include RSUs from privately owned companies? I would venture that approximately 100% of the COBOL jobs that's all cash compensation/salary.
    - 4y ago
- fdgsdfogijq 4y ago
  Honestly, I really doubt it. This COBOL meme, is just that, a meme. Highest paid devs (>400k) generally work with brand new technology
- mywittyname 4y ago
  COBOL devs have been at their same job for 10+ years. So take whatever the average dev wage was 10 years ago, and add 3% raises. Zip Recruiter puts average salaries at around $88k/yr with the top 10% making over $110k. Payscale puts salaries a little lower than that. The of the few job postings I see, none have salary information listed -- in my experience, that tends to mean the salaries are low or average. And if you're a COBOL engineer, jobs opportunities are slim, even in a region with a large number of older banks and insurance companies (read: prime COBOL industries). There's like one job each in areas like Omaha, NE; Alpharetta, GA; Montgomery County, AL; Chattanooga, TN; Milan, IL; Feather South, FL; etc. In other words, a bunch of places nobody has ever heard of.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    The places that need to replace COBOL devs aging out of the work force with apps still running are among the places least likely to practice age discrimination to start with (and even if they were inclined to, there's not a pipeline of fresh out of college/bootcamp COBOL devs.) (C#/Java have lots more opportunities at the same type of workplaces, so aren't bad choices but also lots more competition at all experience levels and from more traditional career paths; still, late-entrants with relative domain expertise can be quite competitive with pure programmers.)
askonomm 4y ago
I don't want to toot my own horn, but I wrote a blog post about being a niche programmer that you may or may not find useful: https://ano.ee/blog/the-niche-programmer https://ano.ee/blog/the-niche-programmer
- fartcannon 4y ago
  I am an extremely niche programmer myself so I'll check it, thanks!