8 ms·

Is your manager just next level laid back? I feel like most places are going to notice and be bothered seeing the yellow circle on your Teams or Slack status co

• dangerlibrary 4y ago
  If managers are spending their days watching the color of the circles next to their team member's names, maybe the managers need more work to do in order to "stay engaged" at work. Of all the bad heuristics for trying to determine whether someone is being productive, this has to be near the bottom of the list. It's the digital equivalent of measuring engineer productivity by looking around the room and seeing who is at their desk. Except that it can be trivially gamed by a simple mouse jiggler script.
  • adamsmith143 4y ago
    Totally agree but from a SWE perspective on any kind of Agile/Scrum team I think the expectation is usually that you pick up another task if you finish early and there's still time during a sprint for example. This also obviously breeds other bad incentives i.e. the faster you work the more work you get.
    • dangerlibrary 4y ago
      It might be time to start looking for a team with a better work culture. There are many of them.
      • adamsmith143 4y ago
        I am definitely willing to concede I may be in a bad situation but are there really teams in Agile frameworks with fibonacci pointing where you can pick up a 3-5 point ticket, finish it before the end of a sprint and not work on anything else?
        • dangerlibrary 4y ago
          Yes, there are, though that question is weirdly specific. Is it important to you to work on a team using an Agile framework with Fibonacci pointing?
          • adamsmith143 4y ago
            Not at all, just trying to make a concrete example.
        • corrral 4y ago
          I've seen plenty where a point-a-day pace or somewhat under (maybe 0.8pt/day) would be a totally normal pace, and is absolutely achievable with under half a day of actual work per day, including meetings, if you know what you're doing. But then again, points are incommensurable between teams.
        • digisign 4y ago
          I don't think you're supposed to do nothing at that point. Leisurely improve your tools, read to improve knowledge/performance, etc. This compounds your efficiency over time, without the stress of more deadlines.
    • nisegami 4y ago
      >the faster you work the more work you get. It took me about 2 months to learn this after getting my first job. Nowadays I intentionally add minor bugs that turn up during demos so I have stuff to "go back and fix" later.
      • digisign 4y ago
        That sounds... unnecessary. There is always stuff to refactor, and tests to add, folks showing up at the last minute with new requirements. Or you can just wait a day to push commits, etc. More honest, I think.
        • nisegami 4y ago
          The only tests we have are some for a project I worked on that I wrote to prove it could be done. Automated testing might as well be dark magic to my coworkers.
        • corrral 4y ago
          Refactoring and adding tests can be (and very often are) pushed into the backlog, and then never done. "We'll circle back to that after this sprint (narrator: they would not circle back to it) but for now focus on these new features" Bugs are more urgent.
          • digisign 4y ago
            Disagree. This is a misconception junior devs often have... that you need to ask permission to do your job. (Not unless the boss is dysfunctional, in which case it's time to leave.) Tests and refactoring should be done as part of every ticket and typically don't need to be explicitly called out. This naturally pushes "done" so you don't run out of tickets early.
            • corrral 4y ago
              Yes, but the point of this was to generate (easy) work that others want you to do so they won't ask you to do other (more time-consuming) stuff instead. You'll have a very different experience telling the product owner you spent the whole week working on bugs that they noticed and they told you to fix (even if you left them in originally on purpose) than telling them you spent all week refactoring code. The former is an instant "great!". The latter is gonna get a concerned look and more questions. The topic wasn't correctly doing development work, but finding ways to slack off while looking good.
    • paskozdilar 4y ago
      > from a SWE perspective on any kind of Agile/Scrum team I think the expectation is usually that you pick up another task if you finish early and there's still time during a sprint for example. This is true, assuming that: 1. the whole team has approximately equal skill 2. the system is uniform and well-documented 3. the people actually give a shit about the product If any of these assumptions are not met, then the expectation is naive.
      • fatnoah 4y ago
        I can't think of any environment that I've been in where this is true. I think the closest I've been was as part of a team of three people where each of us could really handle any task in the codebase. It was also true that there were things that we each cared far more about as individuals, so, in spite of comparable skills, we tended to gravitate to specific stories, anyway. As a manager, I have every expectation that we won't be doing scrum exactly by the book, but that's totally fine. I'm more concerned about (reasonably) consistently reproducible levels of productivity, not squeezing every point out of a sprint. If there's slack time, great. That seems to be when people are most likely to contribute new stories, learn something new, etc. Besides, rigidly following scrum feels anti-Agile, anyway. People and interactions over tools and processes.
      • laserlight 4y ago
        Picking up another task doesn’t mean that it has to be finished. If one lacks skill, they can train. If documentation is missing, one can document whatever they learn. The last one is difficult to address, but not impossible. If team members don’t give a shit about the product, I bet they can still find something they give a shit about that also contributes to the product.
        • paskozdilar 4y ago
          You make a good point. I guess as long as the people are passionate, the first two issues can be, over time, worked through. I guess the tarpit is that the "time" can be really long, especially for (skill-wise) heterogeneous team working on large undocumented projects.
  • AlwaysRock 4y ago
    I had a manager like this. I eventually got some software to keep my computer awake/active from 7am-7pm. It was stupid.
    • wreath 4y ago
      A long Youtube video should do the “trick”
      • bonestamp2 4y ago
        A youtube video won't work for me -- my work computer goes idle if the mouse or keyboard doesn't send input for more than 10 minutes. A lot of my work involves work off of my computer, so I just bought a USB mouse jiggler to keep my computer awake so I still get instant messages from my coworkers when I'm working offline.
        • AlwaysRock 4y ago
          Youtube didnt work for me either. VLC on the otherhand keeps my computer awake.
  • tsol 4y ago
    Even if that's true, this unengaged manager still has the power to make your life difficult if they think you're not doing enough
    • dangerlibrary 4y ago
      And you have the power to schedule a skip-level 1-1 or leave the team.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
• lmarcos 4y ago
  Sure, but what would be their argument against it? "Dev X is pushing his features on time, he's a nice college, always learning from him, but... Ah yeah, but he leaves work 1h before everyone else. Please fire him".
  • adamsmith143 4y ago
    Sure but I guess depending on the place I'd think unless you had an explicit agreement about leaving early that there would be pushback. "If you have enough free time to leave early you have enough time to pick up another ticket"
    • paskozdilar 4y ago
      Which leads right back to the "screw around until the clock strikes five" road, which leads to stress, boredom and resentment. Humans are not machines. 100% efficiency is a pointy-haired manager's pipe dream.
    • b3morales 4y ago
      I've left these "time to lean, time to clean" jobs in the dustbin of my teens where they belong. It's a seller's market for us geeks right now; we should take advantage of it while it lasts and find good conditions for ourselves to work in.
      • ipaddr 4y ago
        How do you filter for that in your job search? Questions during the interview help but it's easy to misunderstand.
        • b3morales 4y ago
          Yeah, fair point. I think the best way is using your connections -- i.e. going to work with people you already know and whose opinion you trust.
        • willcipriano 4y ago
• huehehue 4y ago
  As a manager - my work habits look pretty similar. If you don't trust your peers or reports, such that you need to monitor the specific hours they're doing asynchronous/solo work, then that's a problem. The challenge is actually getting people to take advantage of this. I work with folks who default to overworking, so I have to be pretty insistent that they take time for themselves.
  • b3morales 4y ago
    I currently have a manager like you and honestly this is worth a lot. It's basically part of my compensation, almost like being paid in time. The peace of mind that comes with knowing that when I say "Hey, sorry, I need to take Wednesday off" the reply will be "Hope you've got something fun planned!" instead of the likes of "Hmm, well, we were ahead last sprint so if we slip this one it's okay" is incalculable. (I probably don't have something fun planned, but the sentiment is appreciated.)
    • AlwaysRock 4y ago
      Yup. I've left most jobs in the past because of a bad to okay manager. I've stayed at jobs that honestly I should have left sooner because of great managers. Good managers help you improve your skills, give you meaningful feedback, facilitate work getting done, and get out of your way.
• corrral 4y ago
  Use slack on a phone or tablet most of the time, even when actually working. Set a high notification level when "at work" so you are notified even for non-mentions. Bonus: probably the single most power-hungry and memory-eating piece of crap on your laptop, is reduced to using the tiny amount of power it takes to send a push message, on a different device. Then it's just normal.
• BeetleB 4y ago
  One thing I've found to be consistently true: Good managers highlight concerns with your performance. Poor managers complain about your hours[1]. If they're complaining about your hours, then there's something else bothering them, but they're using this as a proxy[2]. I don't want to work with managers who are not willing to discuss the real issues. They're a pain to deal with. So I always start looking for another job when this happens. [1] This is assuming you're not missing meetings, and it's not a role that is customer facing with defined hours (e.g. storefront that's open for an advertised set of hours). [2] The way to tell, BTW, is there's always someone else who's working less than you're expected to but is getting a pass.
  • fatnoah 4y ago
    >If they're complaining about your hours, then there's something else bothering them, but they're using this as a proxy[2]. This can also be a sign that the manager doesn't really know what you're doing and/or has not set clear goals for you, so they have nothing else to measure except your hours. As VP Eng with an org of 35, my CEO was always giving me grief about the number of hours people on my team were in the office. I always pushed back with our milestone tracking. We are on target, and that's all that matters to me. People know what they need to get done, and that's what I want to manage, not hours in the office, vacation balances, or anything else. I'm not their parent. I set expectations, support them in meeting those expectations, and let them make the adult decision about their time.
• AlwaysRock 4y ago
  Ha. I refuse to play the game. I set my slack to away the day I start and never turn it back to green. I've done this at every job during the pandemic. The stupid green bubble vs gray or yellow or whatever is a form of always being at your desk micro management and it isnt productive. I'll happily explain that to anyone who asks but I've only had a few people ask. Again, if you get your work done most people dont give a shit.
  • corrral 4y ago
    Similar hiding-the-signal tricks: - Set a reminder to go fuck around with your LinkedIn profile for a few minutes every couple months, so at no point are you suddenly active on it (and so, probably thinking about looking for a new job). - If you have a job in an office with a relaxed dress code (like most devs, probably) make a point of dressing interview-nice at least a couple times a month, from the start. That way it's not notable when you happen to dress nice one day and also happen to take a slightly long lunch....
    • throw827474737 4y ago
      Huh, for what hide that? Would they proactively fire you? Here, it is always joked that intentionally giving those signals is the trick to support getting the desired pay raise.. some years ago even saw one guy pulling that off.
      • corrral 4y ago
        The trouble is if you're just idly searching a bit and aren't in a hurry, you might not want your current employer (or co-workers) to start planning to be rid of you soon. At the very least, it might make things awkward.
        • throw827474737 4y ago
          Its strange but I never worked or can imagine working in such an environment. When coworkers would learn I'm searching for something else they either understand me and/or try to persuade me not to jump ship. Why should they, lol? And if I go they wish me all the best as I would do to them. And actually just the same for bosses?
• dijonman2 4y ago
  I use it as a recruiting tool. I can’t compete with FAANG salaries so one thing I do is make it clear performance objectives are accomplishment based not time based. Most of the time my team has a good work life balance. They will all buckle up if shit hits the fan then we go back into normal mode.
  • AlwaysRock 4y ago
    Totally. Right now we have a few tickets in the sprint that have hard deadlines. I'm actually excited to work on them because its a bit of a challenge. Most of our tickets, like most tickets regardless of if people want to admit it or not, don't have hard deadlines so we can actually get things done in a reasonable timeframe. I don't think there is a single thing that helps retention better than WLB. Comp is a close second but someone will always pay better that you. You cant win that battle. WLB is hard to screen for while interviewing so when you find it you are less likely to take a chance on losing it by taking a new job.
• fruit2020 4y ago
  Wait. Does slack show idleness? Maybe it’s disabled in my org. Never seen it on any of my colleagues. We are either green or gray
  • AlwaysRock 4y ago
    I think there is a yellow state. But yellow and gray are both "bad" since they are not green.
    • kadoban 4y ago
      Is there? I wonder how to trigger that, don't think I've ever seen it. There's just green, grey and that little z thing for do-not-distrub for me.
• z3c0 4y ago
  Mouse jigglers are quite liberating.
• ornornor 4y ago
  I worked at a place where they watched the im dot color to decide whether people were working or not, including expecting you to answer voice calls on the first three rings every time. This place was brain dead. I had to teach people not to call me or not to expect me to pick up, and I built a USB hardware mouse emulator that would move th cursor a couple px left and right while perfectly enumerating as the company’s standard issue mouse. This place was hands down the worst place I’ve worked at. Nothing was ever getting done, everyone was running with their hair on fire constantly, it was hell. But managers paid a lot of attention to the color of the IM dot instead of, you know, fixing actual problems. Fuck this place. I don’t miss it. I hope it gets run into the ground by the multiple layers of incompetents at the helm. But it’s unlikely, their customers are in a regulated, captive market.
• lovich 4y ago
  Manager here. I do the same thing and I suspect a few of my reports are as well. As long as they continue to complete their work to my satisfaction level I don’t question them on it. I’ve made clear to them that there’s a few core hours they need to make sure they can be available for meetings with other teams and our 5-10 minute standup is about the only checkin I need. I can already see their git commits and jira history so if I really really wanted to follow along as they go I check that instead of interrupting the devs. My management might want us to work harder if they found out, but every time they’ve tried to get more productivity without increasing pay there’s been a mini exodus of employees and I think they’ve(consciously or not) picked up on the amount of output they are going to get for their salary. The common opinion I and other managers I know well enough to speak openly with is that this a fantastic event for good managers and terrible for bad ones. The good ones work load has diminished because we as managers no longer have to do performative micromanagement for our bosses or other managers. Good managers also already were managing against plans or results that don’t change whether remote or in office. The bad managers have had their workload increase because micromanaging remotely doesn’t appear to be a solved problem
  • antod 4y ago
    Not directly related to your comment, it just triggered a random reflection on micro management... Being micro managed as a manager is even worse than as an IC - there's a certain level of badgering you have to pass on so you can satisfy higher management, and there's a limit to how much of that you can filter. So you get micromanagement of yourself plus the extra shitty feeling of having to do it to others.
    • AlwaysRock 4y ago
      I got out of management for this reason. It was far easier to do my work and otherwise be left alone as an IC. As a manager there were so many meeting that were just there to tell my manager how my reports were doing. It was incredible how much time I spent just relaying tiny updates up and down the chain. Time that could have been spent doing work.
• 8589934591 4y ago
  In microsoft teams you can schedule "focus" time for a max of 4 hours. This acts like DnD and books your calendar. What I did was copy the same slots into 2 more 4 hour slots. So every day I'm busy for 12 hours with DnD. It does not go to the yellow status during that time. Win-win situation if you have shitty management :P