4 ms·

Doesn't matter how many times it is studied. Paranoia will always reign. Whenever someone talks about electro magnetic radiation from wifi or phones, I usuall

by brc 15y ago

Doesn't matter how many times it is studied. Paranoia will always reign. Whenever someone talks about electro magnetic radiation from wifi or phones, I usually point out the massive ball of radiation in the sky that will burn their skin in 15 minutes of exposure and is known to cause cancers in millions of people. People tend to forget about that one when they are obsessing about low powered mobile devices.

codex 15y ago
The sun puts out amazing power (roughly one kilowatt per square meter), but most of that power is in the visible spectrum. As a black body, only a tiny fraction of that power would be emitted at frequencies used by mobiles. Unfortunately, I've been unable to find hard figures, so I so I can't directly compare mobile phone power output with sun exposure at identical frequencies. Does anyone have a good number?
- Dn_Ab 15y ago
  I don't think you used black body in a way that makes sense to your point. Could you clarify? That is, it is true the sun is (approximately) a black body radiator but I am unclear how that supports what you are trying to say. Ionizing radiation is the main cancer culprit and you can be sure the sun emits far more such radiation - mainly in the form of UV rays - than your cell phone. Which is at frequency levels below visible - mainly microwaves I think.
  - codex 15y ago
    It is claimed that mobile phone risks are insignificant compared to the risks of the sun, because the sun puts out way more radiation. However, risks may depend on power and frequency of the radiation (while it is true that ionizing radiation causes cancer, one can't rule out cancer effects at other, non-ionizong frequencies through unknown mechanisms). If it can be shown the sun puts out much less mobile-phone like radiation than your phone, then the conparison is not really valid. Put another way, the question is, "will I be exposed to more mobile-phone like radiation (1.8 Ghz) from a five minute call, or from standing in the sun for five minutes?" I tried to use a blackbody model of the sun to answer this, but I failed. There's also effects of the heat given off by the phone heating your head, but I ignore that.
    - Dn_Ab 15y ago
      The sun puts more infrared radiation on your head. And while I have not looked it up or done any calculations, I suspect that if you integrate over total exposure (watts/m^2) to microwave radiation per unit time on your head, for the average person, the sun will come out on top over the mobile. Especially those near the equator. And since you can't hold all variables as equal we can likely usually find two people where phone + sun is equal but phone or sun exposure for the other person is more. So I argue for many persons we can find another who is doing okay whose total microwave power absorption from sun is equal to that of our person's sun and mobile exposure.
    - tripzilch 15y ago
      > one can't rule out cancer effects at other, non-ionizong frequencies through unknown mechanisms Well, you can. That's the whole point. You pose the hypothesis "unknown mechanisms in non-ionizing radiation cause cancer". Then you do the research, and then when you don't find the cancer effects, you rule out these "unknown mechanisms". That's science. > There's also effects of the heat given off by the phone heating your head, but I ignore that. And so does everybody else, because heat doesn't cause cancer. Additionally, the phone heats your head? Citation? And not just "well it's microwaves so it probably heats things around it by some billion-thousandth of a degree", but an actual citation of mobile phone radiation heating your head, preferably in a manner that is still somewhat significant when compared to the tiny temperature fluctuations caused by natural cell processes (as, you know, if a mitochondria generates more heat than a nearby phone, the point is probably moot, no?).
      - Someone 15y ago
        http://www.mate.tue.nl/mate/pdfs/2037.pdf http://www.mate.tue.nl/mate/pdfs/2037.pdf mentions 0.1 degree centigrade. That is measurable, but not something to be concerned about. It would not surprise me if the temperature raise due to incepreased thermal insulation when using a mobile phone where higher than that 0.1 degree.
  - tripzilch 15y ago
    > Ionizing radiation is the main cancer culprit and you can be sure the sun emits far more such radiation - mainly in the form of UV rays - than your cell phone. Which is at frequency levels below visible - mainly microwaves I think. I thought you were mixing them up at first, but re-reading you did get it right. To clarify, in case anyone else got confused too: UV is just above the visible spectrum in frequency. Microwaves are below infrared, below visible. (from Wikipedia) "Radiation on the short-wavelength [high frequency] end of the electromagnetic spectrum—high-frequency ultraviolet, X-rays, and gamma rays—is ionizing, due to its composition of high-energy photons. Lower-energy radiation, such as visible light, infrared, microwaves, and radio waves, are not ionizing. The latter types of low-energy non-ionizing radiation may damage molecules, but the effect is generally indistinguishable from the effects of simple heating." See here the EM spectrum for reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EM_Spectrum_Properties_edit.svg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EM_Spectrum_Properties_edi...
- brc 15y ago
  My comment isn't necessarily directed at the same frequencies as electronic devices. It's just directed to people who think electronic devices are dangerous, but pay little attention to a known danger - ie, the sun. If you asked the average person on the street if the sun's rays were dangerous radiation, I wonder what answers you'd get. And don't forget there are millions of people lining up every day to actually pay money to submit their body to uv radiation in tanning booths. The dangers are pretty well known now, but they're still around. All I'm saying is that, like most paranoias, from sharks to terrorists and mobile phones along the way, the risk ratio is skewed when fantasy and imagination takes over cold hard facts.
baddox 15y ago
Is there really even much public paranoia? I've never heard of anyone that refuses to use a cell phone because of perceived risk, other than the tiny few people who try to sue claiming that cell phones or cell towers caused cancer or a rash. At worst, I imagine many people probably think there's an extremely small negligible risk.
- Dn_Ab 15y ago
  In my experience cell phones and microwaves ovens are thought by the random public member to be carcinogenic. Never mind that some of these people smoke heavily and binge drink. Heck there is a more logical basis to suspect flame grilling to be cancer causing than mobiles. There is no escaping the damn thing, life causes cancer.
- cpeterso 15y ago
  In my neighborhood, many people are protesting WiFi and new cell towers near their kids' schools. And then there are the people who are "allergic" to WiFi.
- chaffneue 15y ago
  Not to mention smart meters - those new radio based power meters that contact the utility to digitally report electrical usage. Our electrical utility is poised to install them in BC and publications are dirtying the water with paranoia like this: http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/08/09/SmartMeterSkeptic/ http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/08/09/SmartMeterSkeptic/ and http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110808/bc_story_smart_meters_110808?hub=BritishColumbia http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110808/bc... Paranoia like this from the original WHO doc http://www.magdahavas.com/2010/12/02/are-smart-meters-safe/ http://www.magdahavas.com/2010/12/02/are-smart-meters-safe/ and then there's whole orgs worried they're gonna get cancer http://stopsmartmeters.org/2011/08/11/smart-meters-not-green-not-safe-not-legal/ http://stopsmartmeters.org/2011/08/11/smart-meters-not-green... One random dude handed me a pamphlet about stopping the smart meters, citing that it was 10 feet from his head when he slept and that he'd have to find a new home if they actually install it. I feel like I'm watching people make themselves crazy with panic over something that has little science to back it up.
- 15y ago
jasonzemos 15y ago
They're not very low powered though. 3 watts in the low GHz band is very penetrative and can heat very deep inside an object, like a human brain. The sun doesn't penetrate that way.
- Dn_Ab 15y ago
  Can it? From what I've read it will only raise the temperature of the skin and skull by a fraction of a degree, far less than that absorbed from sunlight. The brain is very sensitive to temperature changes and even a bit more than a couple degrees above normal would be very noticeable damage wise - so if your brain cells were being fried the effects would be very visible. Note too that exercise also raises brain temp but your brain is quite able to regulate its temperature under normal conditions (e.g. no certain drugs or overly hot). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_radiation_and_health#Thermal_effects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_radiation_and_heal...
bnegreve 15y ago
People are usually aware of the Sun's effect on their body but they don't know much about radiations emitted by cell phones, hence the paranoia.
sliverstorm 15y ago
To be fair, all forms of invisible rays/waves can be dangerous in large enough quantities. I figure the fact that they are potentially harmful combined with their strange and invisible nature causes the uninformed to freak out disproportionately. Reference the Californias who were afraid radiation from Fukushima would kill them.

by brc 15y ago

codex 15y ago

The sun puts out amazing power (roughly one kilowatt per square meter), but most of that power is in the visible spectrum. As a black body, only a tiny fraction of that power would be emitted at frequencies used by mobiles. Unfortunately, I've been unable to find hard figures, so I so I can't directly compare mobile phone power output with sun exposure at identical frequencies. Does anyone have a good number?

Dn_Ab 15y ago
I don't think you used black body in a way that makes sense to your point. Could you clarify? That is, it is true the sun is (approximately) a black body radiator but I am unclear how that supports what you are trying to say. Ionizing radiation is the main cancer culprit and you can be sure the sun emits far more such radiation - mainly in the form of UV rays - than your cell phone. Which is at frequency levels below visible - mainly microwaves I think.
- codex 15y ago
  It is claimed that mobile phone risks are insignificant compared to the risks of the sun, because the sun puts out way more radiation. However, risks may depend on power and frequency of the radiation (while it is true that ionizing radiation causes cancer, one can't rule out cancer effects at other, non-ionizong frequencies through unknown mechanisms). If it can be shown the sun puts out much less mobile-phone like radiation than your phone, then the conparison is not really valid. Put another way, the question is, "will I be exposed to more mobile-phone like radiation (1.8 Ghz) from a five minute call, or from standing in the sun for five minutes?" I tried to use a blackbody model of the sun to answer this, but I failed. There's also effects of the heat given off by the phone heating your head, but I ignore that.
  - Dn_Ab 15y ago
    The sun puts more infrared radiation on your head. And while I have not looked it up or done any calculations, I suspect that if you integrate over total exposure (watts/m^2) to microwave radiation per unit time on your head, for the average person, the sun will come out on top over the mobile. Especially those near the equator. And since you can't hold all variables as equal we can likely usually find two people where phone + sun is equal but phone or sun exposure for the other person is more. So I argue for many persons we can find another who is doing okay whose total microwave power absorption from sun is equal to that of our person's sun and mobile exposure.
  - tripzilch 15y ago
    > one can't rule out cancer effects at other, non-ionizong frequencies through unknown mechanisms Well, you can. That's the whole point. You pose the hypothesis "unknown mechanisms in non-ionizing radiation cause cancer". Then you do the research, and then when you don't find the cancer effects, you rule out these "unknown mechanisms". That's science. > There's also effects of the heat given off by the phone heating your head, but I ignore that. And so does everybody else, because heat doesn't cause cancer. Additionally, the phone heats your head? Citation? And not just "well it's microwaves so it probably heats things around it by some billion-thousandth of a degree", but an actual citation of mobile phone radiation heating your head, preferably in a manner that is still somewhat significant when compared to the tiny temperature fluctuations caused by natural cell processes (as, you know, if a mitochondria generates more heat than a nearby phone, the point is probably moot, no?).
    - Someone 15y ago
      http://www.mate.tue.nl/mate/pdfs/2037.pdf http://www.mate.tue.nl/mate/pdfs/2037.pdf mentions 0.1 degree centigrade. That is measurable, but not something to be concerned about. It would not surprise me if the temperature raise due to incepreased thermal insulation when using a mobile phone where higher than that 0.1 degree.
- tripzilch 15y ago
  > Ionizing radiation is the main cancer culprit and you can be sure the sun emits far more such radiation - mainly in the form of UV rays - than your cell phone. Which is at frequency levels below visible - mainly microwaves I think. I thought you were mixing them up at first, but re-reading you did get it right. To clarify, in case anyone else got confused too: UV is just above the visible spectrum in frequency. Microwaves are below infrared, below visible. (from Wikipedia) "Radiation on the short-wavelength [high frequency] end of the electromagnetic spectrum—high-frequency ultraviolet, X-rays, and gamma rays—is ionizing, due to its composition of high-energy photons. Lower-energy radiation, such as visible light, infrared, microwaves, and radio waves, are not ionizing. The latter types of low-energy non-ionizing radiation may damage molecules, but the effect is generally indistinguishable from the effects of simple heating." See here the EM spectrum for reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EM_Spectrum_Properties_edit.svg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EM_Spectrum_Properties_edi...
brc 15y ago
My comment isn't necessarily directed at the same frequencies as electronic devices. It's just directed to people who think electronic devices are dangerous, but pay little attention to a known danger - ie, the sun. If you asked the average person on the street if the sun's rays were dangerous radiation, I wonder what answers you'd get. And don't forget there are millions of people lining up every day to actually pay money to submit their body to uv radiation in tanning booths. The dangers are pretty well known now, but they're still around. All I'm saying is that, like most paranoias, from sharks to terrorists and mobile phones along the way, the risk ratio is skewed when fantasy and imagination takes over cold hard facts.

baddox 15y ago

Is there really even much public paranoia? I've never heard of anyone that refuses to use a cell phone because of perceived risk, other than the tiny few people who try to sue claiming that cell phones or cell towers caused cancer or a rash. At worst, I imagine many people probably think there's an extremely small negligible risk.

Dn_Ab 15y ago
In my experience cell phones and microwaves ovens are thought by the random public member to be carcinogenic. Never mind that some of these people smoke heavily and binge drink. Heck there is a more logical basis to suspect flame grilling to be cancer causing than mobiles. There is no escaping the damn thing, life causes cancer.
cpeterso 15y ago
In my neighborhood, many people are protesting WiFi and new cell towers near their kids' schools. And then there are the people who are "allergic" to WiFi.
chaffneue 15y ago
Not to mention smart meters - those new radio based power meters that contact the utility to digitally report electrical usage. Our electrical utility is poised to install them in BC and publications are dirtying the water with paranoia like this: http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/08/09/SmartMeterSkeptic/ http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/08/09/SmartMeterSkeptic/ and http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110808/bc_story_smart_meters_110808?hub=BritishColumbia http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110808/bc... Paranoia like this from the original WHO doc http://www.magdahavas.com/2010/12/02/are-smart-meters-safe/ http://www.magdahavas.com/2010/12/02/are-smart-meters-safe/ and then there's whole orgs worried they're gonna get cancer http://stopsmartmeters.org/2011/08/11/smart-meters-not-green-not-safe-not-legal/ http://stopsmartmeters.org/2011/08/11/smart-meters-not-green... One random dude handed me a pamphlet about stopping the smart meters, citing that it was 10 feet from his head when he slept and that he'd have to find a new home if they actually install it. I feel like I'm watching people make themselves crazy with panic over something that has little science to back it up.
15y ago

jasonzemos 15y ago

They're not very low powered though. 3 watts in the low GHz band is very penetrative and can heat very deep inside an object, like a human brain. The sun doesn't penetrate that way.

Dn_Ab 15y ago
Can it? From what I've read it will only raise the temperature of the skin and skull by a fraction of a degree, far less than that absorbed from sunlight. The brain is very sensitive to temperature changes and even a bit more than a couple degrees above normal would be very noticeable damage wise - so if your brain cells were being fried the effects would be very visible. Note too that exercise also raises brain temp but your brain is quite able to regulate its temperature under normal conditions (e.g. no certain drugs or overly hot). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_radiation_and_health#Thermal_effects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_radiation_and_heal...

bnegreve 15y ago

People are usually aware of the Sun's effect on their body but they don't know much about radiations emitted by cell phones, hence the paranoia.

sliverstorm 15y ago

To be fair, all forms of invisible rays/waves can be dangerous in large enough quantities. I figure the fact that they are potentially harmful combined with their strange and invisible nature causes the uninformed to freak out disproportionately. Reference the Californias who were afraid radiation from Fukushima would kill them.