16 ms·

Are they going to pay enough for their developers to actually live near this Bay St office? Canadian developer salaries are abysmally low.

asd88 4y ago
Cost of living != cost of labor
mcpherrinm 4y ago
Not many Toronto datapoints on levels.fyi for Microsoft, but it looks like their median Canadian comp is $146k cad for data points in the last year. Which is probably enough to afford living in Toronto. The higher end (90th percentile) is $262k cad, which is definitely enough. However, that is lower than you’d probably get in Redmond, though I’m not sure by how much exactly.
- mlex 4y ago
  That p90 number (equivalent to 204k USD) looks like some typical SDE2 TCs in Redmond: https://www.levels.fyi/company/Microsoft/salaries/Software-Engineer/SDE-II/ https://www.levels.fyi/company/Microsoft/salaries/Software-E...
  - google234123 4y ago
    Or less than a junior L3 in the bay area at google.
    - 29athrowaway 4y ago
      And what does that salary get you in the bay area? Living in a tiny apartment with a homeless guy outside. No thanks.
      - soperj 4y ago
        Toronto and Vancouver has basically the equivalent priced real estate as the Bay Area.
        29athrowaway 4y ago
        If there's a large earthquake, what would happen to SF? - old buildings that do not comply with seismic code because codes don't apply retroactively - new buildings built on the liquefaction zone - Millenium tower already has defects even without earthquakes - some buildings are already sinking Everything is going to get rekt. SF is a huge house of cards about to collapse. But they will probably have it better than the guys at Hayward, CA... a town built on top of the Hayward fault line. Why would you do that? That's not to mention the worsening crime rates, even at the more suburban places. Oh, and the traffic, having nowhere to park your car, having to spend 1 hour in traffic to move 1 mile at peak hours, and seeing the city collapse each time a major conference takes place. And public transport is full of hallucination-haunted junkies that get randomly triggered. Sounds like exactly the right place to live, form a family and spend all my money. Or maybe not.
      - google234123 4y ago
        It lets you afford a million+ dollar house after a few years?
        29athrowaway 4y ago
        Yeah sure. And then you will get mugged on your own driveway* because crime rates do not care about how expensive your home is. *: https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7news.com/amp/asian-man-robbed-concord-walnut-creek-family/10529027/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7news.com/amp/asian-man-robb...
__turbobrew__ 4y ago
Yea I’m surprised how little Microsoft pays in Vancouver according to levels.fyi. If an American company paid 80% of American salary to Canadians they would have their pick of Canada’s top talent. This slowly appears to be happening with Meta jobs in Canada. Canada has the same time zones, a similar culture, is geographically close, the same language, and excellent computer science/engineering programs. What Canada doesn’t have is a strong venture capital pool, a culture of risk taking, or a domestic market of 330 million people which stifles new businesses.
- cryptoz 4y ago
  > What Canada doesn’t have is a strong venture capital pool, a culture of risk taking I tried to raise a ~$300k seed round in Toronto in 2014. Most Canadian investors we met with wanted to see us have something like $10k/month in recurring revenue before considering an investment. We spent a week in SF and left with a $250k offer at a $4M valuation, when we were pre-revenue! (We declined, and eventually our business failed (acquhired by a team in SF, though....). But still. Wow! What a difference!)
  - nowherebeen 4y ago
    I haven’t seen any other country that tries new things and willing to spent than the US. That includes Europe and Asia. It’s quite disappointing really because the world is so much bigger than the US alone.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >I haven’t seen any other country that tries new things and willing to spent than the US The US owns the money printer to the world trade currency (USD), and has the military force to defend this unique position, so of course it can afford to outspend everyone else.
      - lIl-IIIl 4y ago
        That may be relevant to the US government, but the investors that would invest in startups don't have access to that printer.
Traster 4y ago
When I worked for a big US company it was very clear- you open an office in Canada because it’s cheaper. So, probably not.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >you open an office in Canada because it’s cheaper. Or, to hire international tech workers who you can't bring to your US office for visa reasons.
  - bin_bash 4y ago
    Yes, this is right. Big Tech is mostly focused on Canada and EU because they can hire people from (chiefly) China and India without H1-Bs. According to a director I spoke with it’s because they can’t find enough qualified engineers, not to save money. Seems we should just be opening more offices in Hyderabad, I don’t know why that isn’t done more. Political security maybe?
    - somehnacct3757 4y ago
      Canada timezones are more desirable
    - ramraj07 4y ago
      Because it’s even harder to hire good tech workers in india now? Europe and Canada have far more talent at far cheaper price right now.
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        >Europe and Canada have far more talent at far cheaper price right now. Depends, it's not just about the employees salaries. Some EU countries have pretty high taxes and high worker's rights so big tech actively avoids them. So in the grand scheme, Indian offices might yeld better return on their investment.
        4y ago
thomgo 4y ago
Most of the office is for sales & support
winter_blue 4y ago
[redacted] (Sorry, I don’t want to grumble.)
- refurb 4y ago
  That sounds about right. If you look at the net immigration flow between Canada and the US, the trend is pretty clear. US immigrants of Canadian origin (2019): 11,900 [1] Canadian immigrants of US origin (2019): 10,800 [2] Of course, with 8.7x the population of Canada, you'd expect the net neutral number to 1:8.7 (Canada to US), but it's actually 1:1. So ~9x more Canadians per capita immigrate to the US than reverse. [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/us-immigration-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/us-immigr... [2] https://www.cicnews.com/2020/02/a-quarter-of-canadas-immigrants-arrived-from-india-in-2019-0213700.html#gs.0zside https://www.cicnews.com/2020/02/a-quarter-of-canadas-immigra...
etblg 4y ago
A 1 bedroom in the area only costs around $2100 these days, taking that rent as 30% of your income, that would only require a salary of like $84,000 a year. That's probably on the low end of pay in Toronto for SWE these days, I can't imagine someone working at Microsoft downtown and not being able to afford a nice place.

asd88 4y ago

Cost of living != cost of labor

mcpherrinm 4y ago

Not many Toronto datapoints on levels.fyi for Microsoft, but it looks like their median Canadian comp is $146k cad for data points in the last year. Which is probably enough to afford living in Toronto. The higher end (90th percentile) is $262k cad, which is definitely enough. However, that is lower than you’d probably get in Redmond, though I’m not sure by how much exactly.

mlex 4y ago
That p90 number (equivalent to 204k USD) looks like some typical SDE2 TCs in Redmond: https://www.levels.fyi/company/Microsoft/salaries/Software-Engineer/SDE-II/ https://www.levels.fyi/company/Microsoft/salaries/Software-E...
- google234123 4y ago
  Or less than a junior L3 in the bay area at google.
  - 29athrowaway 4y ago
    And what does that salary get you in the bay area? Living in a tiny apartment with a homeless guy outside. No thanks.
    - soperj 4y ago
      Toronto and Vancouver has basically the equivalent priced real estate as the Bay Area.
      - 29athrowaway 4y ago
        If there's a large earthquake, what would happen to SF? - old buildings that do not comply with seismic code because codes don't apply retroactively - new buildings built on the liquefaction zone - Millenium tower already has defects even without earthquakes - some buildings are already sinking Everything is going to get rekt. SF is a huge house of cards about to collapse. But they will probably have it better than the guys at Hayward, CA... a town built on top of the Hayward fault line. Why would you do that? That's not to mention the worsening crime rates, even at the more suburban places. Oh, and the traffic, having nowhere to park your car, having to spend 1 hour in traffic to move 1 mile at peak hours, and seeing the city collapse each time a major conference takes place. And public transport is full of hallucination-haunted junkies that get randomly triggered. Sounds like exactly the right place to live, form a family and spend all my money. Or maybe not.
    - google234123 4y ago
      It lets you afford a million+ dollar house after a few years?
      - 29athrowaway 4y ago
        Yeah sure. And then you will get mugged on your own driveway* because crime rates do not care about how expensive your home is. *: https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7news.com/amp/asian-man-robbed-concord-walnut-creek-family/10529027/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7news.com/amp/asian-man-robb...

__turbobrew__ 4y ago

Yea I’m surprised how little Microsoft pays in Vancouver according to levels.fyi. If an American company paid 80% of American salary to Canadians they would have their pick of Canada’s top talent. This slowly appears to be happening with Meta jobs in Canada. Canada has the same time zones, a similar culture, is geographically close, the same language, and excellent computer science/engineering programs. What Canada doesn’t have is a strong venture capital pool, a culture of risk taking, or a domestic market of 330 million people which stifles new businesses.

cryptoz 4y ago
> What Canada doesn’t have is a strong venture capital pool, a culture of risk taking I tried to raise a ~$300k seed round in Toronto in 2014. Most Canadian investors we met with wanted to see us have something like $10k/month in recurring revenue before considering an investment. We spent a week in SF and left with a $250k offer at a $4M valuation, when we were pre-revenue! (We declined, and eventually our business failed (acquhired by a team in SF, though....). But still. Wow! What a difference!)
- nowherebeen 4y ago
  I haven’t seen any other country that tries new things and willing to spent than the US. That includes Europe and Asia. It’s quite disappointing really because the world is so much bigger than the US alone.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >I haven’t seen any other country that tries new things and willing to spent than the US The US owns the money printer to the world trade currency (USD), and has the military force to defend this unique position, so of course it can afford to outspend everyone else.
    - lIl-IIIl 4y ago
      That may be relevant to the US government, but the investors that would invest in startups don't have access to that printer.

Traster 4y ago

When I worked for a big US company it was very clear- you open an office in Canada because it’s cheaper. So, probably not.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>you open an office in Canada because it’s cheaper. Or, to hire international tech workers who you can't bring to your US office for visa reasons.
- bin_bash 4y ago
  Yes, this is right. Big Tech is mostly focused on Canada and EU because they can hire people from (chiefly) China and India without H1-Bs. According to a director I spoke with it’s because they can’t find enough qualified engineers, not to save money. Seems we should just be opening more offices in Hyderabad, I don’t know why that isn’t done more. Political security maybe?
  - somehnacct3757 4y ago
    Canada timezones are more desirable
  - ramraj07 4y ago
    Because it’s even harder to hire good tech workers in india now? Europe and Canada have far more talent at far cheaper price right now.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >Europe and Canada have far more talent at far cheaper price right now. Depends, it's not just about the employees salaries. Some EU countries have pretty high taxes and high worker's rights so big tech actively avoids them. So in the grand scheme, Indian offices might yeld better return on their investment.
      - 4y ago

thomgo 4y ago

Most of the office is for sales & support

winter_blue 4y ago

[redacted] (Sorry, I don’t want to grumble.)

refurb 4y ago
That sounds about right. If you look at the net immigration flow between Canada and the US, the trend is pretty clear. US immigrants of Canadian origin (2019): 11,900 [1] Canadian immigrants of US origin (2019): 10,800 [2] Of course, with 8.7x the population of Canada, you'd expect the net neutral number to 1:8.7 (Canada to US), but it's actually 1:1. So ~9x more Canadians per capita immigrate to the US than reverse. [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/us-immigration-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/us-immigr... [2] https://www.cicnews.com/2020/02/a-quarter-of-canadas-immigrants-arrived-from-india-in-2019-0213700.html#gs.0zside https://www.cicnews.com/2020/02/a-quarter-of-canadas-immigra...

etblg 4y ago

A 1 bedroom in the area only costs around $2100 these days, taking that rent as 30% of your income, that would only require a salary of like $84,000 a year. That's probably on the low end of pay in Toronto for SWE these days, I can't imagine someone working at Microsoft downtown and not being able to afford a nice place.