7 ms·

I guess if you had a partner, someone could be in the parking lot looking for teslas being parked, then a partner could tail that person and relay over cellular

by gernb 4y ago

I guess if you had a partner, someone could be in the parking lot looking for teslas being parked, then a partner could tail that person and relay over cellular to the first standing near the car? I'm wondering what the point of this attack is. Any thief who wants in my car will just bust the windows. If they do the relay attack they can steal the car but the car has GPS and can be locked down remotely so it seems like a high risk low reward crime?

ffhhj 4y ago
To leave something in the car without the owner noticing?
- totetsu 4y ago
  Or take something
zionic 4y ago
This dawned on me the other day, if someone hopped in my Tesla and drove away I’m not sure I could do anything in the app to hinder them. Maybe set valet mode? Best I could do there is cap it to 50
- paxys 4y ago
  Turns out your car is, in fact, a car.
  - zionic 4y ago
    The way the app works though with the default setup leaves it unlocked/ready to go until you walk a considerable distance away. I could see thieves eventually figuring that out.
- philips 4y ago
  You can add a PIN as a second factor. See PIN to drive in the manual https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-94B0E05E-F642-4C8E-8FED-E5EB45FA27DA.html https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-94B0E05...
  - Operyl 4y ago
    > If the touchscreen is still unresponsive, you can still bypass PIN to Drive by turning on Keyless Driving in the Tesla mobile app. Isn't this what the research team is abusing? If so, make sure that's turned off too!
    - philips 4y ago
      Huh. I guess you are right… odd
    - firloop 4y ago
      Pretty sure turning on Keyless driving is separate from unlocking/starting the car with Bluetooth. To do it requires the Tesla account password and I believe is relayed via the LTE connection of the car.
- cortesoft 4y ago
  The cops would be able to follow them via GPS, though.
paxys 4y ago
Yeah, this attack works in theory but is so complicated to set up and execute that a random thief is always going to go for one of the easier options, like picking your pocket or smashing a window. On the other hand if you are a high value target and some person/organization/government has the incentive to target you in this way, you better have adequate protection.
- Swizec 4y ago
  Like that xkcd about full disk encryption and hammers https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
- w4f7z 4y ago
  >Yeah, this attack works in theory but is so complicated to set up and execute There are quite a few security camera videos on youtube of people stealing cars parked in driveways by what appears to be a relay attack.
  - kramerger 4y ago
    Came here to say this. On those video it looked extremely "easy" to me
- chinathrow 4y ago
  > that a random thief is always going to go for one of the easier options, like picking your pocket or smashing a window. Car thief != pick pocket thief
- gambiting 4y ago
  >> the incentive to target you in this way, you better have adequate protection. Having owned some fancy cars, the advice you usally hear from other owners is this - the best protection you can have is a good insurance policy. Putting any kind of lock out/pin/hidden switch system on it, hiding your keys in radio-proof bags etc, is the best recipe to get hurt. Exactly because if you drive such a fancy car, the people coming to steal it are not opportunistic thieves - they are coming to get your car, and they will hurt you to get it. That's why you don't install any extra fancy "trap" systems in the car and you hang your keys right next to the front door, in plain view. If they want to take the car, don't give them a reason to come in and threaten you or your family for the keys or a lock out pin because you thought you were clever with a fancy alarm system. A Lamborghini is replacable. Your life(or the life of your children) is not.
makeitdouble 4y ago
Moving the car to a desert place and stripping it for parts would be a classic move.
- cortesoft 4y ago
  GPS works in the desert.
  - oh_sigh 4y ago
    There's probably a single fuse you can pull out, or a single wire you can cut which would disable enough of the system that you could still drive, but it would stop reporting telemetry.
    - denysvitali 4y ago
      You mean like... the cellular antenna?
      - oh_sigh 4y ago
        Of course, but I was just speaking generally, I'm not sure how teslas are laid out and the accessibility of any given component.
        denysvitali 4y ago
        Let's say that with enough effort you can probably reach it. But if to do that, you have to disassemble half of the car, then it's possibly not convenient to do so :D https://www.auto-manual.com/tesla/tesla-model-3/ https://www.auto-manual.com/tesla/tesla-model-3/
        TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
        The wiring diagram you've linked and a few well aimed drill bits should do the trick.
testbjjl 4y ago
> seems like a high risk low reward crime? The upvotes on social media alone will be worth it to many nowadays.
HWR_14 4y ago
A thief can use this method in front of cops in broad daylight. Break a window, not so much.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  Recent videos would have me believe you can get away with both in broad daylight.
- take_it_not 4y ago
  Come to San Francisco and you will witness the art of window breaking.
noja 4y ago
The thieves would presumably steal it from someone's home and then load it onto a truck and steal the parts.
TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
Has anyone tried to disable the GPS and cellular connection on the models affected?

by gernb 4y ago

ffhhj 4y ago

To leave something in the car without the owner noticing?

totetsu 4y ago
Or take something

zionic 4y ago

This dawned on me the other day, if someone hopped in my Tesla and drove away I’m not sure I could do anything in the app to hinder them. Maybe set valet mode? Best I could do there is cap it to 50

paxys 4y ago
Turns out your car is, in fact, a car.
- zionic 4y ago
  The way the app works though with the default setup leaves it unlocked/ready to go until you walk a considerable distance away. I could see thieves eventually figuring that out.
philips 4y ago
You can add a PIN as a second factor. See PIN to drive in the manual https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-94B0E05E-F642-4C8E-8FED-E5EB45FA27DA.html https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-94B0E05...
- Operyl 4y ago
  > If the touchscreen is still unresponsive, you can still bypass PIN to Drive by turning on Keyless Driving in the Tesla mobile app. Isn't this what the research team is abusing? If so, make sure that's turned off too!
  - philips 4y ago
    Huh. I guess you are right… odd
  - firloop 4y ago
    Pretty sure turning on Keyless driving is separate from unlocking/starting the car with Bluetooth. To do it requires the Tesla account password and I believe is relayed via the LTE connection of the car.
cortesoft 4y ago
The cops would be able to follow them via GPS, though.

paxys 4y ago

Yeah, this attack works in theory but is so complicated to set up and execute that a random thief is always going to go for one of the easier options, like picking your pocket or smashing a window. On the other hand if you are a high value target and some person/organization/government has the incentive to target you in this way, you better have adequate protection.

Swizec 4y ago
Like that xkcd about full disk encryption and hammers https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
w4f7z 4y ago
>Yeah, this attack works in theory but is so complicated to set up and execute There are quite a few security camera videos on youtube of people stealing cars parked in driveways by what appears to be a relay attack.
- kramerger 4y ago
  Came here to say this. On those video it looked extremely "easy" to me
chinathrow 4y ago
> that a random thief is always going to go for one of the easier options, like picking your pocket or smashing a window. Car thief != pick pocket thief
gambiting 4y ago
>> the incentive to target you in this way, you better have adequate protection. Having owned some fancy cars, the advice you usally hear from other owners is this - the best protection you can have is a good insurance policy. Putting any kind of lock out/pin/hidden switch system on it, hiding your keys in radio-proof bags etc, is the best recipe to get hurt. Exactly because if you drive such a fancy car, the people coming to steal it are not opportunistic thieves - they are coming to get your car, and they will hurt you to get it. That's why you don't install any extra fancy "trap" systems in the car and you hang your keys right next to the front door, in plain view. If they want to take the car, don't give them a reason to come in and threaten you or your family for the keys or a lock out pin because you thought you were clever with a fancy alarm system. A Lamborghini is replacable. Your life(or the life of your children) is not.

makeitdouble 4y ago

Moving the car to a desert place and stripping it for parts would be a classic move.

cortesoft 4y ago
GPS works in the desert.
- oh_sigh 4y ago
  There's probably a single fuse you can pull out, or a single wire you can cut which would disable enough of the system that you could still drive, but it would stop reporting telemetry.
  - denysvitali 4y ago
    You mean like... the cellular antenna?
    - oh_sigh 4y ago
      Of course, but I was just speaking generally, I'm not sure how teslas are laid out and the accessibility of any given component.
      - denysvitali 4y ago
        Let's say that with enough effort you can probably reach it. But if to do that, you have to disassemble half of the car, then it's possibly not convenient to do so :D https://www.auto-manual.com/tesla/tesla-model-3/ https://www.auto-manual.com/tesla/tesla-model-3/
        TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
        The wiring diagram you've linked and a few well aimed drill bits should do the trick.

testbjjl 4y ago

> seems like a high risk low reward crime? The upvotes on social media alone will be worth it to many nowadays.

HWR_14 4y ago

A thief can use this method in front of cops in broad daylight. Break a window, not so much.

Gigachad 4y ago
Recent videos would have me believe you can get away with both in broad daylight.
take_it_not 4y ago
Come to San Francisco and you will witness the art of window breaking.

noja 4y ago

The thieves would presumably steal it from someone's home and then load it onto a truck and steal the parts.

TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago

Has anyone tried to disable the GPS and cellular connection on the models affected?