4 ms·

Relevant footage at 8:00 in the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDEWi2nC-Wg&t=480s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDEWi2nC-Wg&t=480s See this screensh

Relevant footage at 8:00 in the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDEWi2nC-Wg&t=480s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDEWi2nC-Wg&t=480s See this screenshot, where for a split second the self-driving visualization shows with a blue line, the car deciding to drive straight across incoming traffic lanes, and apparently failing to see the incoming vehicle: https://hypertele.fi/temp/tesla.png https://hypertele.fi/temp/tesla.png

netsharc 4y ago
A split second after that, the road markings briefly disappeared on the in-car display. Seems like the oncoming headlights blinded the cameras.
- Arrath 4y ago
  I'm curious at how much persistence the detected road markings have. Surely the car doesn't assume the previously observed and mapped road markings just fuckin' disappear the instant there is a camera or data ingestion error? The jitter evident in the road markings throughout the video doesn't massively inspire confidence.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    It's been a common issue in these systems that they seem to lack object permanence
    - code_runner 4y ago
      I imagine this is actually a pretty tough problem to solve.... road marking change dramatically within a few feet sometimes.... most of the residential streets in the historic area I live in have no markings at all but its also an area where markings, composition of road materials etc are subject to change QUICKLY from street to street.
      - brigade 4y ago
        In addition to LiDAR, Tesla also bucks self-driving wisdom by refusing to use mapping data. Everyone else’s L3/L4 plans include a reference mapping of what they expect to see, with the car signaling a disengagement if it deviates too far from the reference.
      - tablespoon 4y ago
        >> I imagine this is actually a pretty tough problem to solve.... road marking change dramatically within a few feet sometimes.... most of the residential streets in the historic area I live in have no markings at all but its also an area where markings, composition of road materials etc are subject to change QUICKLY from street to street. > I imagine this is actually a pretty tough problem to solve.... road marking change dramatically within a few feet sometimes.... most of the residential streets in the historic area I live in have no markings at all but its also an area where markings, composition of road materials etc are subject to change QUICKLY from street to street. I wonder if they could do something like a "Kalman filter" to address this. If you're driving forward on a road, the driving program shouldn't re-derive the scene from moment to moment, but it should update its existing picture with new data. If all the sudden its long-range sensors get jammed, it should be able use its last picture + dead reckoning for at least a little bit (though only for trying to stop in safe(r) position or avoiding entering a more dangerous area). It certainly shouldn't move into oncoming traffic, like this Tesla did. That's exactly what I would do as a human driver (say if all the sudden I'm in a white-out). I know where I am on the road and where the nearby cars were, so I have maybe 10 seconds to try to move off to the side and stop, even if I'm blinded.
      - cameldrv 4y ago
        Yeah but they don't change within a few seconds. You constantly see the lane lines wiggling on these displays and that suggests to me that they have a problem with integrating information over time about objects.
    - travisporter 4y ago
      Tesla's Karpathy made it a point that they are now doing 4d training (time) and integrating all the camera data on last AI day. I don't own a tesla, but that talk got my hopes up stuff like this shouldn't happen
      - mrguyorama 4y ago
        So they are finally working to add object permanence, to a feature they've been selling for like 6 years. It should have been there from day one.
      - kaba0 4y ago
        How on earth did these shitty vehicles get on the road without it to begin with?
- zaptrem 4y ago
  That happens whenever FSD beta is disengaged forcefully. It has nothing to do with what the car is actually perceiving.
- sidewndr46 4y ago
  If your theory is correct, even a low grade laser jammer would be catastrophic out on the highways. Similar to what is used to jam military guidance tech, but not nearly as complex.
  - rightbyte 4y ago
    I have personally witnessed low angle red sun give artifacts on a Velodyne Lidar. It was not repeatable another sunset, to make it worse.
- nradov 4y ago
  In general current digital camera sensors still don't have as much dynamic range as the human eye, so when there's a bright light in one part of a scene they lose details in the shadows. It will probably be necessary to use multiple redundant cameras with varying apertures on the same axis and then overlay the images in software to simulate a wider dynamic range.

netsharc 4y ago

A split second after that, the road markings briefly disappeared on the in-car display. Seems like the oncoming headlights blinded the cameras.

Arrath 4y ago
I'm curious at how much persistence the detected road markings have. Surely the car doesn't assume the previously observed and mapped road markings just fuckin' disappear the instant there is a camera or data ingestion error? The jitter evident in the road markings throughout the video doesn't massively inspire confidence.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  It's been a common issue in these systems that they seem to lack object permanence
  - code_runner 4y ago
    I imagine this is actually a pretty tough problem to solve.... road marking change dramatically within a few feet sometimes.... most of the residential streets in the historic area I live in have no markings at all but its also an area where markings, composition of road materials etc are subject to change QUICKLY from street to street.
    - brigade 4y ago
      In addition to LiDAR, Tesla also bucks self-driving wisdom by refusing to use mapping data. Everyone else’s L3/L4 plans include a reference mapping of what they expect to see, with the car signaling a disengagement if it deviates too far from the reference.
    - tablespoon 4y ago
      >> I imagine this is actually a pretty tough problem to solve.... road marking change dramatically within a few feet sometimes.... most of the residential streets in the historic area I live in have no markings at all but its also an area where markings, composition of road materials etc are subject to change QUICKLY from street to street. > I imagine this is actually a pretty tough problem to solve.... road marking change dramatically within a few feet sometimes.... most of the residential streets in the historic area I live in have no markings at all but its also an area where markings, composition of road materials etc are subject to change QUICKLY from street to street. I wonder if they could do something like a "Kalman filter" to address this. If you're driving forward on a road, the driving program shouldn't re-derive the scene from moment to moment, but it should update its existing picture with new data. If all the sudden its long-range sensors get jammed, it should be able use its last picture + dead reckoning for at least a little bit (though only for trying to stop in safe(r) position or avoiding entering a more dangerous area). It certainly shouldn't move into oncoming traffic, like this Tesla did. That's exactly what I would do as a human driver (say if all the sudden I'm in a white-out). I know where I am on the road and where the nearby cars were, so I have maybe 10 seconds to try to move off to the side and stop, even if I'm blinded.
    - cameldrv 4y ago
      Yeah but they don't change within a few seconds. You constantly see the lane lines wiggling on these displays and that suggests to me that they have a problem with integrating information over time about objects.
  - travisporter 4y ago
    Tesla's Karpathy made it a point that they are now doing 4d training (time) and integrating all the camera data on last AI day. I don't own a tesla, but that talk got my hopes up stuff like this shouldn't happen
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      So they are finally working to add object permanence, to a feature they've been selling for like 6 years. It should have been there from day one.
    - kaba0 4y ago
      How on earth did these shitty vehicles get on the road without it to begin with?
zaptrem 4y ago
That happens whenever FSD beta is disengaged forcefully. It has nothing to do with what the car is actually perceiving.
sidewndr46 4y ago
If your theory is correct, even a low grade laser jammer would be catastrophic out on the highways. Similar to what is used to jam military guidance tech, but not nearly as complex.
- rightbyte 4y ago
  I have personally witnessed low angle red sun give artifacts on a Velodyne Lidar. It was not repeatable another sunset, to make it worse.
nradov 4y ago
In general current digital camera sensors still don't have as much dynamic range as the human eye, so when there's a bright light in one part of a scene they lose details in the shadows. It will probably be necessary to use multiple redundant cameras with varying apertures on the same axis and then overlay the images in software to simulate a wider dynamic range.