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It's far cheaper and less disruptive to simply make a hurry with shutting down the burning of oil, gas, and coal. Simply stop burning the stuff. We no longer ne

It's far cheaper and less disruptive to simply make a hurry with shutting down the burning of oil, gas, and coal. Simply stop burning the stuff. We no longer need to. We have alternatives. Plenty of them and they are still getting better. So, stop building more gas and coal plants. Start planning the decommissioning of the remaining ones. Like this decade and not in half a century. Legislate & tax ICE vehicles out of existence. Get it done quickly. India in particular is insisting on their right to build more coal plants and ramp up the amount of fossil fuels they burn over the next decade. The sense of urgency is a bit lacking over there. They feel entitled to helping destroy our planet. And you could argue it would be fair given other countries have done their part and continue doing so. But it's our planet. Let's stop destroying it instead. Cop 26 nearly got some broad agreement on this. Two notable countries that could not commit to this: India and China. Even the US was broadly OK with the timelines. India is a likely ground zero for wet bulb heat events and other global warming related misery. Burning more coal is not going to help them. They'll spend billions more on cleaning up the aftermath of that then they will save building those plants. If we still need to do geo engineering & terra forming after we get to net 0 carbon, we can do that of course. Those new SpaceX starships might help getting some hardware into orbit at scale. But short term it's neither the cheap, fast, nor easy way out. Current ETA for net zero is around 2060. And that's if everybody is on their best behavior. I think we could do better than that. We're not trying anywhere near hard enough. Any carbon not added to our atmosphere is carbon we don't have to remove or mitigate.

nradov 5y ago
Lately India has even suspended some passenger rail service so that they can use the tracks to transport more coal to power plants. Power demand is at record highs, presumably at least in part from air conditioning to cope with the heat wave. https://www.thehindu.com/business/Economy/power-crisis-indian-railways-missed-coal-india-train-provision-targets-for-over-a-year/article65403453.ece https://www.thehindu.com/business/Economy/power-crisis-india...
tester89 5y ago
> India in particular is insisting on their right to build more coal plants and ramp up the amount of fossil fuels they burn over the next decade. The sense of urgency is a bit lacking over there. They feel entitled to helping destroy our planet. And you could argue it would be fair given other countries have done their part and continue doing so. But it's our planet. Let's stop destroying it instead. Western countries developed through the use of fossile fuels, and contributed to most of the carbon dioxide currently in the atmosphere, as well as increase in global temperature. We also have most of the world’s wealth. If we want to stop destroying the planet, then a good way to do it would be to pay India and China to stop using fossile fuels. India is not a developed nation. Other developed nations developed through exploiting it. If a zero carbon technology were cheaper, then of course they would use it, but by and large right now most are more expensive. Western countries can afford to buy the technologies by adjusting for future externalities, but for India the extra money could very literally be the difference between life and death for a large section of the population. If we want to save the planet so badly, surely we can afford to pay them to decarbonise as well.
- jillesvangurp 5y ago
  India's GDP is about the same size as the UK; if not bigger by now. They have a space program, they are a nuclear power, they have a lot of industry and healthy economic growth. They could step up and be better than their former colonizers rather than just bigger economically. Certainly, they should start leading and stop following. If they can invest in nuclear and going to space, they can invest in clean energy tech. It all boils down to choices and priorities. India will be ground zero for a lot of global warming related misery. Sure, it's our problem but mainly their problem. Let's face it: it will be them shoveling corpses into mass graves when this goes wrong. We'll send help and best wishes and maybe some financial support. Sure. But they should be the biggest activist for tackling the issues related to that. But that's incompatible with their short term agenda of growing at all cost. So, they are not and are acting like they are in denial. Coal is only cheaper if you consider Indian lives to be worthless. Wet heat bulb events and smog are going to be a likely combination. Cities like Mumbai, Delhi, and other large cities all over India are going to have to deal with that. Potentially very soon and very regularly. That's going to be costly and disruptive. Who's accounting for that cost? India? Coal plant operators? Anyone? IMHO as soon as wet bulb heat events become a regular thing in India, they'll be shutting down coal plants in a hurry. Accounting for that now would make building new ones super expensive. The math does not add up if you only get to operate a plant for ten years or so. So they don't. The smart thing would be to adjust plans now and take into account future events.
SubuSS 5y ago
I mean India is doing it because it doesn’t have those billions today to sink into pure clean energy setups: as you’re saying they want their turn at easy growth that western countries have had and that’s understandable. Why isn’t the west that’s able to be concerned with the earth and environment pooling its resources and providing India the subsidized billions now in the form of solar panels et al? (Not just India - all the developing nations). It is not like Indians like living in the smog and 50c temps.
- jillesvangurp 5y ago
  Sounds a bit fatalistic. I don't think they can claim ignorance at this point. India might have its challenges but it is also a nuclear power with a space program and access to all sorts of technical solutions. Burning more coal when you are about to deal with mass casualties due to wet bulb heat events caused by global warming does not sound like it's a plan at all. IMHO those coal plants will cost them more than they are going to deliver in value to them. I'm all for international collaboration on this. That was what cop 26 was about. India ended up blocking a more positive outcome there together with China. They have their reasons. But especially India is going to have a front row seat to the misery caused by global warming. This is a problem that they are going to have to deal with one way or another. Coal is not the answer. It's part of the problem, they need to lead not follow here. Besides, India's GDP is getting there in terms of size. About the same size as the UK; bigger than Russia. They are not an impoverished nation anymore but a growth economy.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  Yep the West and China have to lead the way on alternatives that are cheaper than coal/oil, India is decades behind them on GDP/capita . We need to quit pointing fingers and just do it. We'll spend trillions of dollars on unwinnable wars but won't do the same with energy research that could solve a much bigger problem, the demise of human civilization.
- hulitu 5y ago
  There are also other countries (G7) which are doing it because: others should do it.

nradov 5y ago

Lately India has even suspended some passenger rail service so that they can use the tracks to transport more coal to power plants. Power demand is at record highs, presumably at least in part from air conditioning to cope with the heat wave. https://www.thehindu.com/business/Economy/power-crisis-indian-railways-missed-coal-india-train-provision-targets-for-over-a-year/article65403453.ece https://www.thehindu.com/business/Economy/power-crisis-india...

tester89 5y ago

> India in particular is insisting on their right to build more coal plants and ramp up the amount of fossil fuels they burn over the next decade. The sense of urgency is a bit lacking over there. They feel entitled to helping destroy our planet. And you could argue it would be fair given other countries have done their part and continue doing so. But it's our planet. Let's stop destroying it instead. Western countries developed through the use of fossile fuels, and contributed to most of the carbon dioxide currently in the atmosphere, as well as increase in global temperature. We also have most of the world’s wealth. If we want to stop destroying the planet, then a good way to do it would be to pay India and China to stop using fossile fuels. India is not a developed nation. Other developed nations developed through exploiting it. If a zero carbon technology were cheaper, then of course they would use it, but by and large right now most are more expensive. Western countries can afford to buy the technologies by adjusting for future externalities, but for India the extra money could very literally be the difference between life and death for a large section of the population. If we want to save the planet so badly, surely we can afford to pay them to decarbonise as well.

jillesvangurp 5y ago
India's GDP is about the same size as the UK; if not bigger by now. They have a space program, they are a nuclear power, they have a lot of industry and healthy economic growth. They could step up and be better than their former colonizers rather than just bigger economically. Certainly, they should start leading and stop following. If they can invest in nuclear and going to space, they can invest in clean energy tech. It all boils down to choices and priorities. India will be ground zero for a lot of global warming related misery. Sure, it's our problem but mainly their problem. Let's face it: it will be them shoveling corpses into mass graves when this goes wrong. We'll send help and best wishes and maybe some financial support. Sure. But they should be the biggest activist for tackling the issues related to that. But that's incompatible with their short term agenda of growing at all cost. So, they are not and are acting like they are in denial. Coal is only cheaper if you consider Indian lives to be worthless. Wet heat bulb events and smog are going to be a likely combination. Cities like Mumbai, Delhi, and other large cities all over India are going to have to deal with that. Potentially very soon and very regularly. That's going to be costly and disruptive. Who's accounting for that cost? India? Coal plant operators? Anyone? IMHO as soon as wet bulb heat events become a regular thing in India, they'll be shutting down coal plants in a hurry. Accounting for that now would make building new ones super expensive. The math does not add up if you only get to operate a plant for ten years or so. So they don't. The smart thing would be to adjust plans now and take into account future events.

SubuSS 5y ago

I mean India is doing it because it doesn’t have those billions today to sink into pure clean energy setups: as you’re saying they want their turn at easy growth that western countries have had and that’s understandable. Why isn’t the west that’s able to be concerned with the earth and environment pooling its resources and providing India the subsidized billions now in the form of solar panels et al? (Not just India - all the developing nations). It is not like Indians like living in the smog and 50c temps.

jillesvangurp 5y ago
Sounds a bit fatalistic. I don't think they can claim ignorance at this point. India might have its challenges but it is also a nuclear power with a space program and access to all sorts of technical solutions. Burning more coal when you are about to deal with mass casualties due to wet bulb heat events caused by global warming does not sound like it's a plan at all. IMHO those coal plants will cost them more than they are going to deliver in value to them. I'm all for international collaboration on this. That was what cop 26 was about. India ended up blocking a more positive outcome there together with China. They have their reasons. But especially India is going to have a front row seat to the misery caused by global warming. This is a problem that they are going to have to deal with one way or another. Coal is not the answer. It's part of the problem, they need to lead not follow here. Besides, India's GDP is getting there in terms of size. About the same size as the UK; bigger than Russia. They are not an impoverished nation anymore but a growth economy.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
Yep the West and China have to lead the way on alternatives that are cheaper than coal/oil, India is decades behind them on GDP/capita . We need to quit pointing fingers and just do it. We'll spend trillions of dollars on unwinnable wars but won't do the same with energy research that could solve a much bigger problem, the demise of human civilization.
hulitu 5y ago
There are also other countries (G7) which are doing it because: others should do it.