16 ms·

The Modos Paper Laptop

323 points by robin_reala 4y ago

blowski 4y ago
How does it compare to, say, a remarkable tablet? I found the latter great for writing and reading well-formatted pages. But reading a typical whizzbang webpage or using an app to be painful. The lack of a mouse made life particularly difficult.
- Lio 4y ago
  I guess one of the big differences would be the laptop form factor and having a keyboard. I’m less bothered about surfing the web on something like this. When writing I find it easier to type and edit what I’ve put down. Not sure if Remarkable has an optional keyboard or not but I think using a pen requires more thought overhead for me, if that makes any sense.
  - rcoder 4y ago
    No direct keyboard support on the reMarkable, but you can trivially get a root shell over USB-C — while charging, unlike older USB OTG setups on phones and tablets with one micro-USB connector — so it’s totally something you can hack together. None of the bundled software is designed for using a keyboard, of course, so it’s going to be just as DIY as the very earliest Linux handhelds. (Anyone else remember the awful HP “iPaq” PDA Linux environment? I set one up because I could, and them never see the device again because the UX and battery life were so bad.)
    - Lio 4y ago
      That actually sounds like it would be totally be ok. If the goal is to get a distraction free writing tool all you really need is something like Vi, emacs or Wordstar/Joe in a terminal. I never had an ipak but I did have a couple of Sharp Zaurus PDAs running Linux back in the day. Just for kicks. I never did much with them.
- will0 4y ago
  I have a Onyx Boox Note Air, and it's amazing for reading / writing. I have an SSH app on it (it's Android) and the experience starts to fall apart there. I can type significantly faster than it can refresh and render the characters. That being said I'm sure there's some magic you could do to reduce latency here if you tried. I know it does some magic behind the scenes with the drawing to improve responsiveness.
  - pjerem 4y ago
    > I know it does some magic behind the scenes with the drawing to improve responsiveness. The way I understand the technology : refresh time looks related to how many pixels you draw at once. When you write with a pen, very few pixels have to change state on a given unit of time (the pixels under the stylus) the "magic" behind fast writing on e-ink is to draw the pixels under the pen as fast as possible then if needed add details once the user stops writing. The problem with your terminal is once you reach the bottom of the screen and you start scrolling : from now on, every new line will redraw the entire screen. Now you are exactly drawing as much pixels as any e-book which is … slow. You would need a terminal without scrolling (or some mid-page scrolling). This could probably be done but you would probably have problems with a lot of cli programs.
yeellow 4y ago
Why not an Android based e-reader with a simple stand and a Bluetooth keyboard? Lighter, better for reading and enough if what you want is simple writing. And most probably cheaper. You can even have one with a stylus for handwriting.
- alex-a-soto 4y ago
  You are correct; an Android-based e-reader with a simple stand Bluetooth keyboard could work. I have used a Remarkable and Dasung Not-ereader for this purpose. I believe creating an e-ink device is, in many ways, a new category of devices that requires changes to the hardware, software, and many other areas to create a cohesive experience for people. In the long term, I see it as a process of creating an ecosystem of e-ink devices that is open-hardware and open-source.
bluescrn 4y ago
Does high-refresh-rate (e.g. capable-of-scrolling) e-ink exist yet?
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Depends how you define high refresh rate. By regular e-paper standards the tech it has come quite far but still below the 60Hz you get in any cheapo LCD tech. Also, the faster you refresh a e-paper display, the power consumption can even surpass power efficient LCD tech so it's just not viable in that case unless the panel has the capability of partial refresh but even then it's not ideal for consuming fast moving content. E-paper displays are power efficient for static images (books, price tags, advertising, notifications, etc) but if you have to refresh them fully several times a second, the power consumption goes through the roof (moving the e-ink particles around in their pixel compartments requires more effort than rotating LCD crystals/OLED).
  - alex-a-soto 4y ago
    One of the areas we are exploring is developing Wayland protocols that will offer native e-ink support to client applications. We hope this may partially address the power consumption/efficiency of static/dynamic content related to e-paper displays.
- danjessen 4y ago
  Isn't that kinda counter intuitive compared to what e-ink was originally made for?
  - bluescrn 4y ago
    If you want to make an e-ink laptop (with more functionality than a Kindle), you're going to need to handle scrolling, cursors, or motion of some kind
  - wakeupcall 4y ago
    For? It's more like "what can we do with this tech?"
deleted 4y ago
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t_mann 4y ago
I'm very happy with my e-Ink tablet, so this sounds like a very interesting project. The main benefit is that it just feels less distractive and addictive. But it's a far more limited UX than LCD/OLED screens, we have to admit that. I can see the laptop form factor being useful for tasks that mainly requires reading/writing text and doesn't depend on fast refresh rates or lots of mouse interactions, eg authors, perhaps some types of research and programming too.
- 1-6 4y ago
  Which e-Ink tablet do you have?
  - IanCal 4y ago
    Different person, but I have a supernote a5x and really love it for writing. It's replaced my "piles of bits of paper" approach. There's a nice way of organising things but I am not strict enough on that.
  - t_mann 4y ago
    Onyx Boox Note or sth like that, can't remember the exact model name.
- woojoo666 4y ago
  Would be cool if somebody made an E-Ink 2-in-1, like the surface pro
  - robin_reala 4y ago
    I assume you’re not talking about something like the Lenovo Yoga Book C930? https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/laptops/yoga/yoga-2-in-1-series/Yoga-Book-C930/p/ZZIWZWBYB1J https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/laptops/yoga/yoga-2-in-1-series...
    - woojoo666 4y ago
      Wow that's neat. But I was thinking more along the lines of a E-Ink tablet with a kickstand and detachable keyboard
TruthWillHurt 4y ago
Looks too thick. Needs to be light and ultra-portable. Passive cooling if possible.
- waterlaw 4y ago
  Agreed. Bought a chromebook and made a distro that boots into neovim for this reason. It's fanless. Cost $45. Makes almost no heat after tweaking. Has a 12 hour battery life under use. Basically functions as an electronic (abeit more advanced) typewriter. Since the screen is 11 inches. I usually prop the Kindle on one side of it and use nvim in vsplit mode. Half the screen becomes e-ink. Can read and take notes at the same time.
  - blindluke 4y ago
    I'd love to hear more details about your setup, if you're willing to share. Especially the part about using the Kindle as a secondary screen.
- alex-a-soto 4y ago
  Hi, Thank you for the feedback; we are working on creating the laptop chassis and are taking this into consideration.
rkangel 4y ago
Previous discussion (4 months ago): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29929446 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29929446
elnatro 4y ago
I would buy this in an instant. A separated device to write my blog or some short stories would be a godsend to me. With each year it passes, I feel my concentration vanish more and more. A distraction-free device could help me regain some concentration (I think).
- bluescrn 4y ago
  You could make any PC or laptop into a 'low distraction' device by disconnecting it from the Internet and having a minimum install of only the required productivity software. It won't free you from the distraction of your other devices though, as you've probably got a fully-online phone within reach.
  - yur3i__ 4y ago
    Yeah I feel like this kind of thing is a bit of redundant, if you were going to be distracted by looking at HN on your laptop, you probably will do the same on your phone
  - Grumbledour 4y ago
    I got similar feelings as the OP though. It's not just about notifications popping up or having a browser at hand. I feel the epaper display puts me in a different frame of mind. A "Not sitting at the computer" state, in which I think differently. So I always wondered if writing on an epaper display would not feel entirely different than looking at an empty page in a word processor. I certainly feel the difference when reading a book an my ereader vs. my phone/tablet.
    - Kerrick 4y ago
      I have an IBM Correcting Selectric III for this exact purpose. I do find it helps. It’s not very portable, though. I just picked up a Sears Citation for that, but the 1960s typewriter definition of portable is much closer to “you can take it on a trip and type in your hotel room” than it is to “you can take it on a hike and type under a tree.”
tluyben2 4y ago
I would buy this indeed. I like working outside and it's not very good at the moment. I think projects like this should do this as Frame.work 'plug-ins' though. We really need some type of open 'shelf parts' company that just makes for a hardware / software ecosystem of compatible hardware and software (drivers).
- tapia 4y ago
  I came here just to say this too. They don't need to reinvent the whole wheel again. In this case all it is needed is to change the screen and add the Electrophoretic Display Controller. That would be the most efficient approach.
  - tluyben2 4y ago
    Someone will do it, but this is the second eInk article in a month or so from different people. If they only would spend their valuable time on making a screen for the Frame.work and post the schematics in GitHub. They can sell it and make profits because someone needs to make that assembly as an easy addon for Frame.work; they might even sell it as option? In the previous discussion, I also learned about RLCD which I vaguely knew about when Qi Pixel was a thing but it seems to have improved. So one of those for the frame.work too, and all is good!
- alex-a-soto 4y ago
  Thank you for the feedback. When we started working on this project, the frame.work was not available, or it's mainboard; we are exploring this approach as a possibility.
yayr 4y ago
Is it still worth designing new low/medium performance laptops that are not based on a SOC? I mean, the energy requirements for dedicated CPU/GPU units are just not good I guess
avgcorrection 4y ago
What’s interesting about this is that it would pose a similar challenge to text editing that teletypes did back in the day. The machines where you had to print stuff to paper (no screen). With Ed, Ex, and those kinds of editors. Much less extreme though.
- alex-a-soto 4y ago
  Yes, I agree, and that is a good comparison, and a lot to learn from that era of computing. One of the areas we are exploring is building native e-ink applications.
john-titor 4y ago
I honestly don't see an added value to such a product. Pushing for minimalism can be nice in a lot of situations, but to me, this seems like it's going a bit too far: The target audience for such a product can't possibly be that large. Visual applications aside, even coding without any syntax highlighting does not sound too great.
- daptaq 4y ago
  Perhaps battery-life?
- diffeomorphism 4y ago
  When discussing external eink screens the comments were that you definitely do get syntax highlighting, just not in color but rather bold, italic, different font etc. That said, I also think that an eink screen (or tablet with screen) that you can use with any laptop has a much larger audience than having it built in.
- osener 4y ago
  I would LOVE to have this for working outdoors on a sunny day.
  - vim-guru 4y ago
    This!
  - DoingIsLearning 4y ago
    I would much rather see a comeback of those Transflective LCD displays that Pixel Qi made almost 10 years ago. Here is a demo of the Pixel Qi10 display : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi6DbFyZde8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi6DbFyZde8 They had a dual mode so you could have the look/feel of a normal backlight LCD panel but when you wanted to go outside you could toggle to transflective mode. This means you would have normal refresh rates, color, multimedia, and an actual useful display when outdoors. Not sure why they ever went bust or what happened to the IP for these displays.
tintedfireglass 4y ago
The website is down :( No one can escape the HN Hug Of Death lol
HidyBush 4y ago
Why would I need an underpowered laptop with a laggy e-ink screen and probably a bottom of the barrel keyboard? First of all it's a terrible reading experience. Why would I want to lug around a whole laptop to read some books? My 10.1" e-ink tablet is already perfect. And if not books, what else would I read, documents? documentation? as per what reason? to _program_ on that device? so it would need to have a complete desktop OS to deploy everything that I need? on such limited hardware? Secondly it's a terrible writing experience. Not in a million years that keyboard is going to be better than a model M or even a decent mechanical keyboard. Also, again, write what? A book or a scientific paper? ok sure, if you are so dedicated that you are willing to buy a device only for that to bring with you on your travels then please go ahead. Also writing code would be impossible because as I've mentioned you would basically need your whole stack. Lastly it seems to really not solve the problem it claims to solve. What's the purpose of this device, to have less distractions? Ok, then why couldn't I just write my stuff on a notebook or with a typewriter? If you want purpose and intentionality those are really the ways to do it, not mash your keyboard infinitely at a e-ink laptop. Same goes for reading, if the aim is to make reading slower and more comfortable then just read a good old book. Nothing slower and more distraction-free than being able only to bring one with you at a time because of the size. Please then, could anybody tell me what they find interesting about this product? Because I really don't get it
- dmos62 4y ago
  Honestly, your tone is horrible. You seem to be venting and I'd suggest you think about why, for your own sake.
- skrebbel 4y ago
  You could've asked these questions without being so dismissive. This is clearly (currently) a single person's passion project, you don't need to come at them so hard.
- samjmck 4y ago
  It's a cool open-hardware and open-source project. What are you so worked up about?
deleted 4y ago
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cehrlich 4y ago
Looks interesting, especially the frankenstein model in the ThinkPad T41 chassis as that has a lovely keyboard and display aspect ratio. However I think the biggest problem to tackle here is not the hardware but the software. If it runs for example some kind of regular Linux distribution or Android it won't be very usable as they're just not designed for e-ink. If on the other hand it runs something custom, it would need to be able to sync documents to the exact syncing setup that I currently use for me to consider buying it (and of course also the exact syncing setup of any other potential buyer, of which there are probably close to infinite, especially in the kind of circles that this device appeals to in the first place).
- zozbot234 4y ago
  > If it runs for example some kind of regular Linux distribution or Android it won't be very usable as they're just not designed for e-ink. You've got to start from somewhere. Once you have hardware that can run regular Linux well enough, adapting the UX to e-paper screens ought to be comparatively easy. This is exactly how we got mobile-friendly Linux distributions after all.
- maven29 4y ago
  KOReader is built for kobo e-ink readers but will run on Android and Linux distributions. It supports syncing to Calibre which you could self-host and access over tailscale. As for webapps, you have einkbro on android, which you could run on linux with Waydroid.
- alex-a-soto 4y ago
  Thank you! There are challenges at every step in the process. Some of these challenges are discussed in this blog post: https://alexsoto.dev/challenges-building-an-open-source-eink-laptop.html https://alexsoto.dev/challenges-building-an-open-source-eink... Since that blog post, we are exploring developing Wayland protocols that will offer native e-ink support to client applications.
Gentil 4y ago
While I don't think this is comparable to the ordinary laptops, I am still glad this is present. Mainly because the tech is evolving and I can't wait for e-inks to have colorful displays with 1ms response time! This is one of the many pre-steps towards it.
dmos62 4y ago
I'd love to use this for programming, or writing. It being both eink and x86 is pretty unique. Though there are alternatives I'm looking at, like an android eink tablet with a bluetooth keyboard, which has the advantage of portability. I'd mostly work through Mosh either way, so the x86 vs arm doesn't matter that much.
nitin-pai 4y ago
The idea has potential. It will appeal to people who have to do a lot of reading, writing and thinking; and who are currently distracted by a lot of applications and features on their all-purpose devices. Theoretically, you can turn off the Wi-Fi, put the writing app in focus mode, turn off notifications and avoid googling and looking at email and twitter. In practice, it is nearly impossible to do so. Which is why there are so many focus apps, pomodoro timers etc. It takes a lot of will power to avoid distractions. Unlike a Kindle this thing can be used to key in text. It certainly has a niche. What we don’t know is how big that niche is, and whether it will cause others to adopt non-distractive devices.
SapporoChris 4y ago
After reading the article and the Hacker News comments, I have to wonder if the approach is wrong. Instead of using e-ink which does have it's merits but has a very poor refresh rate, why not use an algorithm to adjust typical laptop screens to be more visible in sunlight conditions. Second thought, smartphones are really on the cutting edge of display technology. If e-ink was viable, wouldn't we be seeing at least some e-ink smartphones?
- scoopertrooper 4y ago
  E-ink smartphones do exist. https://www.e-ink-info.com/e-ink-devices/mobile-phones https://www.e-ink-info.com/e-ink-devices/mobile-phones
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 4y ago
    YotaPhone-style devices always seemed like such a great idea. The back of a phone is 90% useless, and the front of a phone is largely useless in direct sunlight. Making the back of a phone an e-reader just sounds awesome, especially for larger phones.
- spaniard89277 4y ago
  The refresh rate is no longer a product, look for Boox and Dasung PC displays.
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    I have not seen those. But based on my experience with other eInk displays, I suspect they are downplaying their refresh rate issues. I don't doubt they are better than previous eInk displays, but I suspect no one would watch a movie on those eInk displays and claim it's anything close to, say, OLED for example. Good enough? I would have to try one out.
    - spaniard89277 4y ago
      You have people reviewing them in YT. LGTM.
peterburkimsher 4y ago
What is the highest PPI, pocket-sized, e-ink display? I'm imagining a 3.5" handheld device for kids, that can't be broken. Very low power. Could show comics or other graphics, but usually just text. The maximum information density would be to fill that "cheat sheet" with Traditional Chinese characters, written top to bottom, left to right. And that depends on the PPI. https://www.quora.com/Can-literate-Chinese-people-easily-read-vertical-writing https://www.quora.com/Can-literate-Chinese-people-easily-rea...
- robin_reala 4y ago
  I’m living proof that it’s possible to break e-ink displays without any real effort.
  - peterburkimsher 4y ago
    Are they stronger than LCDs?
    - robin_reala 4y ago
      I’ve broken more e-ink displays (2) than LCDs (0?), but it could be because they ereaders tend to be left in unexpected places. But either way, they’re not tricky to crush, and the failure mode is much the same as LCDs.
    - AlanYx 4y ago
      E-ink panels come in two types, one with a flexible backplane and one with a rigid blackplane. The former are durable and resistant to blunt blows; the latter are not. The ones with a flexible backplane don't necessarily require a rigid polycarbonate covering layer; there are commercial devices like the Fujitsu Quaderno that just use them raw. But if you were targeting young children who might take sharp objects to the screen, you'd want to use a covering layer.
      - peterburkimsher 4y ago
        Thank you! I think a flexible backplane is good for wearable electronics, and a rigid covering layer (polycarbonate or glass) is better for typing on a keyboard.
frou_dh 4y ago
Using a typical desktop operating system, but on an eInk screen, is one of those things that sounds cool, but I suspect the reality after using it for a while will be "Never mind, this sucks, because no software (including the OS itself) was designed with working well on sluggish & image-persistence-afflicted panels in mind". I think doing this concept properly is as much of a software project as a hardware project.
- solarkraft 4y ago
  I use normal Android apps on my R-Reader. With some contrast settings and animations (mostly) turned off it's quite nice. However the animations that are still around (loading spinner, animated GIF) can be quite annoying. A mouse pointer may itself be a bit hard to display on an E-Ink Screen. It will definitely leave a trail behind.
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  If you work mainly in terminals it will be OK I think. Something like i3 and off you go.
- PMunch 4y ago
  I have some insight in this as I'm currently building a very similar project myself. I'm using off-the-shelf components and the relatively cheap USB driver board for the 10.3" ePaper display is more than capable enough of showing a variety of content. Typing in a document or code is plenty fast, scrolling a webpage is usable, but you'd probably want to use PgUp/PgDown, moving the mouse around is fine but I'm using a tiling window manager to avoid having to drag windows around. I'm able to drive video, but it's quite choppy. In general small updates are plenty fast (like showing characters next to a cursor) and big updates are slow (like full screen video playback). Playing video in a small window is fine if you just want to get some information out of it. All these speeds are in a dithered 1-bit mode though. As soon as you start playing around with grayscale things starts going slow (you essentially need to display N levels of grayscale as N frames). The system I'm using is capable of updating parts of the display in 1-bit mode and others in "high-fidelity" 16 levels mode. This means that I could e.g. tell it that my picture viewing program should use the full quality mode, and my text editor should use the fast mode. Since I'm using a tiling window manager opening a picture would then use about a second to display the image, but once it's there I could type into a window next to it at full speed. It could also allow me to highlight areas to redraw in high-quality mode if I was browsing a website for example and wanted to watch a particular image.
microflash 4y ago
After years of trying different things, I have come to a conclusion that any variation of technology is not going to help from distractions until and unless you excercise discipline and restraint. Dialing back from the things that distract you can work with any technology. Healthy eating, excercising and sleep can do wonders. Walking away from "digital" world for some time can work too.
- Loughla 4y ago
  For me, it's like quitting smoking. I couldn't do it cold turkey, it took trying many different things to 'wean' myself off of nicotine. Technology is the same. I noticed I was getting distracted when I carried a tablet for work. So I replaced it with a remarkable. No more easy distraction = no more distraction. So for some (especially those of us with addictive personalities), it is about finding supplementary aides to help with that discipline and restraint.
- coryfklein 4y ago
  > any variation of technology is not going to help from distractions until and unless you excercise discipline and restraint There's definitely a feedback cycle here though. Swap your dazzling iPhone 14 Pro Max for an iPhone 4S and then change the display to greyscale and see just how fast this technological solution reduces your levels of distraction. Of course as you say it alone isn't a panacea: doing that is painful. But live with the pain long enough, and you've now used technology as a crutch to change your brain to expect the distraction less. Here are some other technological solutions that I have found helpful: * News Feed Eradicator: a browser plugin that hides those algorithmic news feeds that are the cocaine of the internet * Unhook - Remove YouTube Recommended Videos: removes the sidebar on YouTube * Podcasts - Even if you "already know" all the psychological tricks the world is pulling on you, your brain is programmable and if you simply listen and re-listen to Tristan Harris on a regular basis this imprints these lessons into your head. That, in turn, provides a well of motivation that can be used when the lure of addiction presents itself.
  - incanus77 4y ago
    > There's definitely a feedback cycle here though. Swap your dazzling iPhone 14 Pro Max for an iPhone 4S and then change the display to greyscale and see just how fast this technological solution reduces your levels of distraction. This worked for me. A few years back, I turned down everything (black background, no icons on home screen, no auto-wake on raise) on my iPhone SE (original version) and removed all social and mail apps. I’m still on this phone, both for this and for (small) size reasons. Other than direct texts from people who need to reach me (which I liberally put into Do Not Disturb from time to time), I don’t get any notifications on my device. It’s wonderful. I eventually brought back Mail, mostly because I was using it for address references or communications during things like Craigslist transactions, but I no longer check it unless I’m looking for something in particular. Along these lines, for all apps I install, I deny notifications by default, then consider (and often, don’t) enabling them for functionality that I need later on. Though I don’t do as much as I used to (I’ve mixed in many other platforms), I do contract iOS development from time to time. I typically use my (also 5+ year old) iPad Pro for either iPhone/iPad development. When I need actual phone testing, while my SE is a little slow, the bigger problem I run into there more frequently is screen size considerations — even some of Apple’s apps assume you have more screen real estate and cut things off awkwardly. > Of course as you say it alone isn't a panacea: doing that is painful. But live with the pain long enough, and you've now used technology as a crutch to change your brain to expect the distraction less. Absolutely — a great way to put it.
nerdy_nerd101 4y ago
I was legit dreaming about a laptop with e-ink display to help with eye-strain and then saw this post. Hope this product gets to market and sells enough units so that it becomes more common!
- alex-a-soto 4y ago
  Thank you for your kind words, it means a lot; I and others share your desire to use a laptop with an e-ink display and we are working it.
bichonnages 4y ago
I wish there was a dedicated distraction-free OS. I would just install it on my old MacBook Air. A word processor and a basic file system (with possibly a link to Dropbox or something). That's it. That would be amazing. [edit] as mentioned here: http://www.suppertime.co.uk/blogmywiki/2019/07/distraction-free-writing-os/ http://www.suppertime.co.uk/blogmywiki/2019/07/distraction-f...
- Grumbledour 4y ago
  I have been wondering if something like https://gtoolkit.com/ https://gtoolkit.com/ would fit the bill, though I have to admit I find it a bit hard to grok. But having a form of interactive notebook running as an OS on a simple device could be a really powerful computing experience.
- alex-a-soto 4y ago
  Hi, thanks for sharing the Glamorous Toolkit; I have looked into it in the past, and it reminds me of Emacs 'modability'. I'm working on a blog post about what a dedicated distraction-free OS would look like.
blenderdt 4y ago
An alternative is an E-ink monitor. Recently Onyx released a 25" version. But it is expensive, around $1700 https://onyxboox.com/boox_mirapro https://onyxboox.com/boox_mirapro
- robin_reala 4y ago
  Dasung do one as well, presumably with the same panel. One thing I’m wondering is what’s the power draw of these screens? Ereaders famously sip power, but that’s due to the race-to-zero environment. If you’re running these on a 60fps HDMI connection how do they stack up against LCDs?
- itwy 4y ago
  Do they have good support of the monitor needs repair? Any experience?
- abawany 4y ago
  Also the 32" reflective lcd from Sunvision: https://www.sunvisiondisplay.com/product/SVD-32-Color-RLCD-Computer-Monitor https://www.sunvisiondisplay.com/product/SVD-32-Color-RLCD-C... . The "My Deep Guide" person has made about 3 hours of video to review it and it seems impressive so far.
tengwar2 4y ago
I do a lot of writing, but I find that the idea of a distraction free environment doesn't work for me because I need to refer to external material too often. It doesn't matter whether it is for reviewing engineering projects, writing sermons or eulogies for funerals, or doing academic work (I have a bit of an odd lifestyle), I always need to use more than the editor or word-processor. I could see how it might work for a poet, but I'm not that. If you are one of the people for whom a low-distraction environment works, could you say what sort of stuff you are writing?
- nathias 4y ago
  Philosophy, but I divide the work of research and writing into separate activities. This isn't great from a productivity/quantitative aspect, but it's much better for quality.
  - nine_k 4y ago
    So, you can honestly say: "Now I've found enough, and whatever questions I may have during the writing I can answer with what I've found"? That's a... superpower.
    - jokethrowaway 4y ago
      I rarely (twice a month? I don't remember the last time) search something online when I'm working on something at work (personal projects are the total opposite). We try to limit dependencies because they are security risks and work is basically implementing slightly different services doing more or less the same things with a slightly different architecture. I'd love to have less eye strain for the worthless time I'm spending in front of a computer in order to make money. I'm worried the refresh rate speed won't be pleasant enough though: typing on my kindle is a pain. On top of that, a huge portion of my paid time is spent in equally worthless video meetings so I would need some other device, regardless.
    - nathias 4y ago
      Yes, it helps if you are an expert in the field and have a broad overview and are working on things that aren't popular.
nathias 4y ago
I use the Pomera DM100, the only thing that bothers me is the keyboard ...
- alex-a-soto 4y ago
  Great, I use a Pomera DM30, and it's a lovely portable device, although it takes some to adjust to the keyboard.
youhavetosayit 4y ago
This is my dream, please. Make the refresh rate slightly too slow for videos, I'm buying 5, thanks <3
- moffkalast 4y ago
  Ironically, the end product will likely be unable to render that webpage they made to pitch the idea properly.
GekkePrutser 4y ago
I would love this. However, Waveshare whose epaper displays I use a lot always say they are not suitable for working in direct sunlight. Which is kinda the one thing such a laptop would really shine at. So, would this be suitable? PS: Front View and Side View show a svelte laptop but the "Chassis" photo shows a Lenovo/IBM T41? I assume this is a prototype and not the actual chassis. I wonder if they would sell the display they put in those T41 prototypes, I still have a T42 lying around that would come in handy for this.
- phil294 4y ago
  Sorry I don't have an answer, only more questions on this. I also read about this limitation. Perhaps it's more of a warranty issue and direct sunlight exposure merely reduces the lifespan by a few percent. Given that you have been using Waveshare displays a lot already, what are your observations on this? Is it really problematic? I've been using an ancient ebook reader for reading recently, and contrast will be washed out to about 50% when exposed to sun while page flipping (until next refresh). However, I've been thinking this is due to the old age of the device.
  - GekkePrutser 4y ago
    I haven't really used them as such, no. Just used them in a few electronics projects. I have to say though that waveshare's displays are of pretty low quality. They are designed to be used in electronic price tags in stores and as such will never see daylight. I've used an old Kindle in sunlight and I had no issues, but if I'd buy a laptop like this for a significant price I'd want to be sure of course.
- alex-a-soto 4y ago
  Yes, this was for our prototype and not the actual chassis. We have had conversations about building additional T41 prototypes for the pilot program and or selling them. It's something we will revisit in the future.
pmlnr 4y ago
I beg you: make it with the old ThinkPad keyboard, including the trackpoint with 3 physical buttons.
- alex-a-soto 4y ago
  As an owner of multiple Thinkpads and a fan of the classic IBM keyboards, I hear you loud and clear.
Loughla 4y ago
Oh man. I would absolutely buy this today if it was available. Switching from a tablet to a remarkable helped my work focus one million percent. Switching to that from a laptop for everything else can only help, too (he says while writing this on said laptop instead of prepping for the next meeting).
rbanffy 4y ago
With an ePaper display that size this machine will be extremely expensive. The main factor providing the distraction free environment could be the Armlogic processor making it uncomfortable to browse the web (although 4 A73 cores isn’t bad at all).
spoonjim 4y ago
What matters for something like this is not the idea but the execution. This page is little more than “I’m going to build a battery car” or “I’m going to build a reusable rocket.” What you want to see instead is descriptions of the hardware projects that the founding team has successfully shipped. A major hint of trouble is “we’re accepting applications.” A team that is likely to succeed here would have a core founding team in place, not just a Wordpress post.
- alex-a-soto 4y ago
  Thank you for the feedback, it's appreciated, and we are working on it.
- ricksunny 4y ago
  Isn't this just a rehashing of the value-less pop business advice, "In order to be big, be big already'. It's an open-source venture, crowdsourcing talent. They're not making statements that they have to be the greatest thing since sliced bread.
  - spoonjim 4y ago
    Show me a blog post like this that has led to shipped hardware
bee_rider 4y ago
I wonder if something like this would fit easily within the Framework, uh, framework.
- michaelmior 4y ago
  That was one of my first thoughts too. It would be awesome if this could simply be yet another display module for the Framework Laptop. It seems as though Framework uses EDP (Embedded Display Port) so an e-Ink display of the correct dimensions which uses EDP would work in theory. Although I'd imagine there would be some work to be done to make it function well.
  - rcoder 4y ago
    The physical connector is unfortunately not an indicator that the hardware and software needed to drive an e-Ink display will be similar to an LCD. Sadly, e-Ink displays require custom drivers to function at all, and in particular partial refresh (needed to get sub-second updates) requires targeting known dirty regions of the display and updating just those…hence the extra ghosting in the higher-speed mode of most ebook readers & etc. that use EPDs.
    - michaelmior 4y ago
      I understand that. My point was that the Framework Laptop uses a standard connector so it's at least possible in theory. (Perhaps EDP is very common, I'm not familiar with the space at all.) In any case, partial refresh is obviously not something that one could expect to work without additional effort.
voidhorse 4y ago
I love the look of e-ink but I’ve been skeptical of using it for work ever since trying a few devices with e-ink screens—the latency of an eink screen can be a lot higher if the manufacturer doesn’t get it right, which is fine for some use cases but can be really annoying for others, such as typing. For those looking for a distraction free, portable writing experience specifically, check out the pomera dm 200. It does not use eink but has a UI that sports a very similar look and feel to eink devices. It’s responsive, extremely portable, and only supports writing text. It’s Japanese, so the UI is in Japanese only, but you can write using English characters.
e-_pusher 4y ago
For my distraction-free writing, the solution I found was to buy a 1992 grayscale LCD 386 laptop. I can do writing in Word that I have installed on Windows 3.1 and then open them later on my modern day computer with a floppy disk drive. This setup works great and I can help answer questions if anyone is curious. I was going to write a blog post about this but I ended up sitting on the draft for too long and forgot about it, I really should publish that post :)
- 0des 4y ago
  Are you always connected to power? I kept a few old laptops that would be practically useless today, but always wanted to resurrect for simple offline things. The biggest issue I have is power when off the charger. I think my best laptop is 45 minutes or so per charge. At one point I even bought extra batteries and kept them safely stored and dry, only to realize that this does almost nothing to preserve their longevity as now years later I find them all to have about the same lifespan. I have extra 18650 batteries, however Im not sure, given the size of these, that this is what they use in there.
  - e-_pusher 4y ago
    Yes the battery is long dead, so I always run it off of wall power. I have though about making a 3D printed modern day battery that is shaped like a NiMh battery of old, but has LiIon batteries inside, gets charged off of USBC, and provides voltage at the same level that the original NiMh would provide. Should be doable, but never got around to it.
    - 0des 4y ago
      That seems pretty complicated, I like it.
    - the_biot 4y ago
      That sounds like a fun project, but I think you're overthinking how hard this needs to be. Instead of 3D printing an enclosure to fit the laptop, just fill it out with some goop like sugru or something. It just has to not rattle, is all. For voltage, just get some cheap buck converter board off Ebay, one that you can adjust down to the voltage the laptop needs, and have your battery pack a higher voltage than that. And a Li-Ion BMS board to charge it of course.
eBombzor 4y ago
On Windows: Settings > Accessibility > Color Filters > Grayscale helps a lot for me.
binkHN 4y ago
I, basically, had this back in college. I realize I’m dating myself now, but, back before laptops were inexpensively available, I had a “mobile electric typewriter.” No Internet and I simply used it to write my term papers while away from school or home/on the beach. It was somewhat bulky and had a small screen, but I was able to write my papers without white-out and I had no distractions from the technology.
sj4nz 4y ago
Usable in direct sunlight? When will this product ship?
JoelMcCracken 4y ago
I really want this. My daily driver is a macbook pro and I use a boox max lumi as my main programming display. I'd love to have a laptop with this built in.
RistrettoMike 4y ago
Chucking in another hearty "I'm interested!" I currently use several modern laptops in tandem with an Onyx Boox tablet, but would love to offload even more of my use cases that make sense to e-ink. Followed the Twitter account, and am looking forward to more updates on what this turns out to be! Wouldn't mind seeing them here on HN either ;)
johnchristopher 4y ago
Hope it works out and it'll pay those utility bills ^^.
steveylang 4y ago
This reminds me of the Pixel Qi screens that promised cheaper notebooks with really long battery life (and was used in the OLPC.) Today's backlit e-ink screens do seem more promising, although the versatility of a computer using a slow refresh screen really hurts it. For the right price it could be useful and find its niche.
dcchambers 4y ago
If you want a distraction and eye-strain-free writing device that's currently available, your best option right now is probably a ReMarkable Tablet + third party software + keyboard plugged in via USB OTG. Take a look at Keywriter: https://github.com/dps/remarkable-keywriter https://github.com/dps/remarkable-keywriter Stick it in a 3D printed clamshell case and boom, you've got yourself a basic e-ink laptop/writing device.
vlark 4y ago
The best distraction-free device is a notebook and a pencil. Now, if you really want to get distracted, start trying to decide which notebook with which grade of paper and which pencil with which type of lead.
kcplate 4y ago
Projects like this always remind my of John Mayer’s Steve Jobs story… John Mayer to Steve Jobs: “Why don’t you bring out a vintage looking MacBook G3 Pismo, but with all new guts inside?” Steve Jobs: “Because we would sell 14 of them.” Edit: #6 https://youtu.be/bTkRdVPM9fs https://youtu.be/bTkRdVPM9fs
elviejo 4y ago
What I want is a frame.work laptop that uses an eink screen. There are many 13.3 inch eink in panels so maybe it isn't for somebody with the right skills to do this.
dredmorbius 4y ago
This definitely looks interesting. As noted in thread, I've been using an e-paper device, the Onyx BOOX Max Lumi, for about a year. It's my strong preference for reading, and I do some Linux-type stuff on it, mostly through Termux. A few thoughts: - If you think you're going to avoid distraction simply by changing the screen properties ... you're likely to be disappointed. Though desaturation and reducing animations does no doubt help. You and your environment remain your biggest enemy. - Shutting off WiFi is your biggest win for productivity. - High-density, high-contrast, B&W display is a pleasure to read. - The lack of tools to schedule / manage / organise tasks and resources on my tablet itself is a huge frustration. Much of that is the lack of tools to view / manage content metadata. If you're reading a book at a time, or 2, or 10, that's not such a problem. I treat my tablet as a library, with 100s to 1,000s of references / documents available. There are no tools to effectively manage these. - Much of the problem with content presentation online is not due to shortcomings of the PDF format itself, but of displays. Simply having a large enough and portrait-mode display is a huge win. "Large enough" starts at about 9", though I'd recommend 10" -- 13" for the sweet spot. A problem of course is that you want to accommodate the worst cases you're likely to encounter, and for me that's three-column, small-font, scanned in journal and periodicals articles. 13" is almost too big for standard book reading, but it's awfully nice for handwritten notes. - Having a fixed keyboard at all times might actually be a disadvantage. Being able to flexibly transition from tablet to laptop seems a useful option. - There's a stunning amount that can be done at shell and with fairly minimal system capabilities. Serving up the modern Web is not amongst these. The degree to which a web browser absolutely pigs out a system really cannot be overstated. This is sad and a Very Bad Thing.[1] - Android sucks. - I really cannot express in words how much Android sucks. I'd desperately like to have some sort of e-ink / mobile / portable device that isn't based on Android or iOS. Real Motherlovin' Linux would be awesomesauce. That said, the more you pile onto a mobile platform, the more battery life will suck. Some compromises simply have to be made. - Android sucks specifically because: 1. The OS management is not geared to constand usage. 2. User state is constantly lost/discarded. 3. The app ecosystem is abysmal. 4. Filesystem access is walled off. 5. The device owner is subordinate to the system and OS, and lacks root by default. 6. Such arcane matters as handling keyboard input consistently across applications seem to be Deep And Insurmountable Mysteries Of The Universe. 7. Google Play Is Motherfucking Spyware. 8. Google. 9. This is not the end. It's not the beginning. It's not even the beginning nof the prelude of the introduction of the preface of the beginning. - Which raises some interesting prospects for battery-sparing power. A very lightweight terminal handler (reads keystrokes, updates display), paired with a larger system that fires up when Other Shit Needs Doing, such that the platform is effectively catnapping most of the time, might work out. How often the system wakes and processes is an interesting question, but that might be anywhere from every few seconds to every few minutes. The key is for wake/sleep to draw less power than remaining on constantly. On mains power, wake would persist for longer. An audio-output channel might also remain more persistently awake. - So long as E-Ink (the company) controls patents and production, e-paper display costs will be high. I don't know what the BOM for Onyx's display is, but suspect it's a major share of the device's final $800 cost. That means that everything else will have to fall into whatever residual budget exists. Yes, the laptop will be expensive relative to its processor / memory / storage specs. OTOH, it's probably possible to economise considerably on graphics. - Prototyping this as a display module option for the Framework laptop[2] might be really interesting. - If presented as a desktop, optimisations for E-Ink will be necessary. How much of this is attainable through existing desktop environments/software, and how much needs customisation, remains to be seen. I espect some significant teething pains in this area. This applies to both the graphical shell and applications. Einkbro, an e-ink optimised Web browser (Android) is a good study in what optimisations are useful. If anything, the app does not go far enough in favouring paging to scrolling, IMO. - Some sort of dedicated hard screen refresh is likely necessary. Ghosting is tolerable to a point, and then it's not. Giving the user an option to refresh seems highly useful. - The ability to divide the screen into different regions of different refresh/quality modes would be useful. Text -> "Regal", scrolling "Speed" or "A2" mode, animations / video, "X Mode". These would probably be assigned either by appllcation, or by content within applications --- e.g., video -> X Mode, images -> Speed. (In my experience, the halftoning / dithering of Speed and A2 modes is actually preferable to "Regal" for images. "Regal" is best suited to text and handwriting.) This is all but certainly an E-Ink / vendor issue, and not something Modos would be able to address themselves, though there might be hooks / conversions in the graphics layer (Xorg or Wayland?) that would address this. - Modos all but certainly wants to use a tiled / tiling-friendly window manager. - In addition to the display, I'd like to see a decent audio system, with hardwired audio output and no onboard speaker. Both audio media (e.g., podcasts) and voice comms should be an available function of the device. (Use for voice comms would probably entail battery/performance compromises, podcast playback largely should not.) ________________________________ Notes: 1. How to fix this is of course one of the Perennial Conversations and a Hard Problem. I'm increasingly of the view to 1) split the web into a) content, b) applications, c) media, and d) commerce, and to impose extreme penalties on poorly-performing and standards-noncompliant sites. Of course, a major driver of all of this is monetisation and control, both of which are their own long digressions. But unless these are addressed, no technical fixes will suffice. Defeat the system itself. 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28606962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28606962 https://pluralistic.net/2021/09/21/monica-byrne/#think-different https://pluralistic.net/2021/09/21/monica-byrne/#think-diffe...

323 points by robin_reala 4y ago

How does it compare to, say, a remarkable tablet? I found the latter great for writing and reading well-formatted pages. But reading a typical whizzbang webpage or using an app to be painful. The lack of a mouse made life particularly difficult.

Lio 4y ago
I guess one of the big differences would be the laptop form factor and having a keyboard. I’m less bothered about surfing the web on something like this. When writing I find it easier to type and edit what I’ve put down. Not sure if Remarkable has an optional keyboard or not but I think using a pen requires more thought overhead for me, if that makes any sense.
- rcoder 4y ago
  No direct keyboard support on the reMarkable, but you can trivially get a root shell over USB-C — while charging, unlike older USB OTG setups on phones and tablets with one micro-USB connector — so it’s totally something you can hack together. None of the bundled software is designed for using a keyboard, of course, so it’s going to be just as DIY as the very earliest Linux handhelds. (Anyone else remember the awful HP “iPaq” PDA Linux environment? I set one up because I could, and them never see the device again because the UX and battery life were so bad.)
  - Lio 4y ago
    That actually sounds like it would be totally be ok. If the goal is to get a distraction free writing tool all you really need is something like Vi, emacs or Wordstar/Joe in a terminal. I never had an ipak but I did have a couple of Sharp Zaurus PDAs running Linux back in the day. Just for kicks. I never did much with them.
will0 4y ago
I have a Onyx Boox Note Air, and it's amazing for reading / writing. I have an SSH app on it (it's Android) and the experience starts to fall apart there. I can type significantly faster than it can refresh and render the characters. That being said I'm sure there's some magic you could do to reduce latency here if you tried. I know it does some magic behind the scenes with the drawing to improve responsiveness.
- pjerem 4y ago
  > I know it does some magic behind the scenes with the drawing to improve responsiveness. The way I understand the technology : refresh time looks related to how many pixels you draw at once. When you write with a pen, very few pixels have to change state on a given unit of time (the pixels under the stylus) the "magic" behind fast writing on e-ink is to draw the pixels under the pen as fast as possible then if needed add details once the user stops writing. The problem with your terminal is once you reach the bottom of the screen and you start scrolling : from now on, every new line will redraw the entire screen. Now you are exactly drawing as much pixels as any e-book which is … slow. You would need a terminal without scrolling (or some mid-page scrolling). This could probably be done but you would probably have problems with a lot of cli programs.

yeellow 4y ago

Why not an Android based e-reader with a simple stand and a Bluetooth keyboard? Lighter, better for reading and enough if what you want is simple writing. And most probably cheaper. You can even have one with a stylus for handwriting.

alex-a-soto 4y ago
You are correct; an Android-based e-reader with a simple stand Bluetooth keyboard could work. I have used a Remarkable and Dasung Not-ereader for this purpose. I believe creating an e-ink device is, in many ways, a new category of devices that requires changes to the hardware, software, and many other areas to create a cohesive experience for people. In the long term, I see it as a process of creating an ecosystem of e-ink devices that is open-hardware and open-source.

bluescrn 4y ago

Does high-refresh-rate (e.g. capable-of-scrolling) e-ink exist yet?

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Depends how you define high refresh rate. By regular e-paper standards the tech it has come quite far but still below the 60Hz you get in any cheapo LCD tech. Also, the faster you refresh a e-paper display, the power consumption can even surpass power efficient LCD tech so it's just not viable in that case unless the panel has the capability of partial refresh but even then it's not ideal for consuming fast moving content. E-paper displays are power efficient for static images (books, price tags, advertising, notifications, etc) but if you have to refresh them fully several times a second, the power consumption goes through the roof (moving the e-ink particles around in their pixel compartments requires more effort than rotating LCD crystals/OLED).
- alex-a-soto 4y ago
  One of the areas we are exploring is developing Wayland protocols that will offer native e-ink support to client applications. We hope this may partially address the power consumption/efficiency of static/dynamic content related to e-paper displays.
danjessen 4y ago
Isn't that kinda counter intuitive compared to what e-ink was originally made for?
- bluescrn 4y ago
  If you want to make an e-ink laptop (with more functionality than a Kindle), you're going to need to handle scrolling, cursors, or motion of some kind
- wakeupcall 4y ago
  For? It's more like "what can we do with this tech?"

deleted 4y ago

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t_mann 4y ago

I'm very happy with my e-Ink tablet, so this sounds like a very interesting project. The main benefit is that it just feels less distractive and addictive. But it's a far more limited UX than LCD/OLED screens, we have to admit that. I can see the laptop form factor being useful for tasks that mainly requires reading/writing text and doesn't depend on fast refresh rates or lots of mouse interactions, eg authors, perhaps some types of research and programming too.

1-6 4y ago
Which e-Ink tablet do you have?
- IanCal 4y ago
  Different person, but I have a supernote a5x and really love it for writing. It's replaced my "piles of bits of paper" approach. There's a nice way of organising things but I am not strict enough on that.
- t_mann 4y ago
  Onyx Boox Note or sth like that, can't remember the exact model name.
woojoo666 4y ago
Would be cool if somebody made an E-Ink 2-in-1, like the surface pro
- robin_reala 4y ago
  I assume you’re not talking about something like the Lenovo Yoga Book C930? https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/laptops/yoga/yoga-2-in-1-series/Yoga-Book-C930/p/ZZIWZWBYB1J https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/laptops/yoga/yoga-2-in-1-series...
  - woojoo666 4y ago
    Wow that's neat. But I was thinking more along the lines of a E-Ink tablet with a kickstand and detachable keyboard

TruthWillHurt 4y ago

Looks too thick. Needs to be light and ultra-portable. Passive cooling if possible.

waterlaw 4y ago
Agreed. Bought a chromebook and made a distro that boots into neovim for this reason. It's fanless. Cost $45. Makes almost no heat after tweaking. Has a 12 hour battery life under use. Basically functions as an electronic (abeit more advanced) typewriter. Since the screen is 11 inches. I usually prop the Kindle on one side of it and use nvim in vsplit mode. Half the screen becomes e-ink. Can read and take notes at the same time.
- blindluke 4y ago
  I'd love to hear more details about your setup, if you're willing to share. Especially the part about using the Kindle as a secondary screen.
alex-a-soto 4y ago
Hi, Thank you for the feedback; we are working on creating the laptop chassis and are taking this into consideration.

rkangel 4y ago

Previous discussion (4 months ago): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29929446 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29929446

elnatro 4y ago

I would buy this in an instant. A separated device to write my blog or some short stories would be a godsend to me. With each year it passes, I feel my concentration vanish more and more. A distraction-free device could help me regain some concentration (I think).

bluescrn 4y ago
You could make any PC or laptop into a 'low distraction' device by disconnecting it from the Internet and having a minimum install of only the required productivity software. It won't free you from the distraction of your other devices though, as you've probably got a fully-online phone within reach.
- yur3i__ 4y ago
  Yeah I feel like this kind of thing is a bit of redundant, if you were going to be distracted by looking at HN on your laptop, you probably will do the same on your phone
- Grumbledour 4y ago
  I got similar feelings as the OP though. It's not just about notifications popping up or having a browser at hand. I feel the epaper display puts me in a different frame of mind. A "Not sitting at the computer" state, in which I think differently. So I always wondered if writing on an epaper display would not feel entirely different than looking at an empty page in a word processor. I certainly feel the difference when reading a book an my ereader vs. my phone/tablet.
  - Kerrick 4y ago
    I have an IBM Correcting Selectric III for this exact purpose. I do find it helps. It’s not very portable, though. I just picked up a Sears Citation for that, but the 1960s typewriter definition of portable is much closer to “you can take it on a trip and type in your hotel room” than it is to “you can take it on a hike and type under a tree.”

tluyben2 4y ago

I would buy this indeed. I like working outside and it's not very good at the moment. I think projects like this should do this as Frame.work 'plug-ins' though. We really need some type of open 'shelf parts' company that just makes for a hardware / software ecosystem of compatible hardware and software (drivers).

tapia 4y ago
I came here just to say this too. They don't need to reinvent the whole wheel again. In this case all it is needed is to change the screen and add the Electrophoretic Display Controller. That would be the most efficient approach.
- tluyben2 4y ago
  Someone will do it, but this is the second eInk article in a month or so from different people. If they only would spend their valuable time on making a screen for the Frame.work and post the schematics in GitHub. They can sell it and make profits because someone needs to make that assembly as an easy addon for Frame.work; they might even sell it as option? In the previous discussion, I also learned about RLCD which I vaguely knew about when Qi Pixel was a thing but it seems to have improved. So one of those for the frame.work too, and all is good!
alex-a-soto 4y ago
Thank you for the feedback. When we started working on this project, the frame.work was not available, or it's mainboard; we are exploring this approach as a possibility.

yayr 4y ago

Is it still worth designing new low/medium performance laptops that are not based on a SOC? I mean, the energy requirements for dedicated CPU/GPU units are just not good I guess

avgcorrection 4y ago

What’s interesting about this is that it would pose a similar challenge to text editing that teletypes did back in the day. The machines where you had to print stuff to paper (no screen). With Ed, Ex, and those kinds of editors. Much less extreme though.

alex-a-soto 4y ago
Yes, I agree, and that is a good comparison, and a lot to learn from that era of computing. One of the areas we are exploring is building native e-ink applications.

john-titor 4y ago

I honestly don't see an added value to such a product. Pushing for minimalism can be nice in a lot of situations, but to me, this seems like it's going a bit too far: The target audience for such a product can't possibly be that large. Visual applications aside, even coding without any syntax highlighting does not sound too great.

daptaq 4y ago
Perhaps battery-life?
diffeomorphism 4y ago
When discussing external eink screens the comments were that you definitely do get syntax highlighting, just not in color but rather bold, italic, different font etc. That said, I also think that an eink screen (or tablet with screen) that you can use with any laptop has a much larger audience than having it built in.
osener 4y ago
I would LOVE to have this for working outdoors on a sunny day.
- vim-guru 4y ago
  This!
- DoingIsLearning 4y ago
  I would much rather see a comeback of those Transflective LCD displays that Pixel Qi made almost 10 years ago. Here is a demo of the Pixel Qi10 display : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi6DbFyZde8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi6DbFyZde8 They had a dual mode so you could have the look/feel of a normal backlight LCD panel but when you wanted to go outside you could toggle to transflective mode. This means you would have normal refresh rates, color, multimedia, and an actual useful display when outdoors. Not sure why they ever went bust or what happened to the IP for these displays.

tintedfireglass 4y ago

The website is down :( No one can escape the HN Hug Of Death lol

HidyBush 4y ago

Why would I need an underpowered laptop with a laggy e-ink screen and probably a bottom of the barrel keyboard? First of all it's a terrible reading experience. Why would I want to lug around a whole laptop to read some books? My 10.1" e-ink tablet is already perfect. And if not books, what else would I read, documents? documentation? as per what reason? to _program_ on that device? so it would need to have a complete desktop OS to deploy everything that I need? on such limited hardware? Secondly it's a terrible writing experience. Not in a million years that keyboard is going to be better than a model M or even a decent mechanical keyboard. Also, again, write what? A book or a scientific paper? ok sure, if you are so dedicated that you are willing to buy a device only for that to bring with you on your travels then please go ahead. Also writing code would be impossible because as I've mentioned you would basically need your whole stack. Lastly it seems to really not solve the problem it claims to solve. What's the purpose of this device, to have less distractions? Ok, then why couldn't I just write my stuff on a notebook or with a typewriter? If you want purpose and intentionality those are really the ways to do it, not mash your keyboard infinitely at a e-ink laptop. Same goes for reading, if the aim is to make reading slower and more comfortable then just read a good old book. Nothing slower and more distraction-free than being able only to bring one with you at a time because of the size. Please then, could anybody tell me what they find interesting about this product? Because I really don't get it

dmos62 4y ago
Honestly, your tone is horrible. You seem to be venting and I'd suggest you think about why, for your own sake.
skrebbel 4y ago
You could've asked these questions without being so dismissive. This is clearly (currently) a single person's passion project, you don't need to come at them so hard.
samjmck 4y ago
It's a cool open-hardware and open-source project. What are you so worked up about?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

cehrlich 4y ago

Looks interesting, especially the frankenstein model in the ThinkPad T41 chassis as that has a lovely keyboard and display aspect ratio. However I think the biggest problem to tackle here is not the hardware but the software. If it runs for example some kind of regular Linux distribution or Android it won't be very usable as they're just not designed for e-ink. If on the other hand it runs something custom, it would need to be able to sync documents to the exact syncing setup that I currently use for me to consider buying it (and of course also the exact syncing setup of any other potential buyer, of which there are probably close to infinite, especially in the kind of circles that this device appeals to in the first place).

zozbot234 4y ago
> If it runs for example some kind of regular Linux distribution or Android it won't be very usable as they're just not designed for e-ink. You've got to start from somewhere. Once you have hardware that can run regular Linux well enough, adapting the UX to e-paper screens ought to be comparatively easy. This is exactly how we got mobile-friendly Linux distributions after all.
maven29 4y ago
KOReader is built for kobo e-ink readers but will run on Android and Linux distributions. It supports syncing to Calibre which you could self-host and access over tailscale. As for webapps, you have einkbro on android, which you could run on linux with Waydroid.
alex-a-soto 4y ago
Thank you! There are challenges at every step in the process. Some of these challenges are discussed in this blog post: https://alexsoto.dev/challenges-building-an-open-source-eink-laptop.html https://alexsoto.dev/challenges-building-an-open-source-eink... Since that blog post, we are exploring developing Wayland protocols that will offer native e-ink support to client applications.

Gentil 4y ago

While I don't think this is comparable to the ordinary laptops, I am still glad this is present. Mainly because the tech is evolving and I can't wait for e-inks to have colorful displays with 1ms response time! This is one of the many pre-steps towards it.

dmos62 4y ago

I'd love to use this for programming, or writing. It being both eink and x86 is pretty unique. Though there are alternatives I'm looking at, like an android eink tablet with a bluetooth keyboard, which has the advantage of portability. I'd mostly work through Mosh either way, so the x86 vs arm doesn't matter that much.

nitin-pai 4y ago

The idea has potential. It will appeal to people who have to do a lot of reading, writing and thinking; and who are currently distracted by a lot of applications and features on their all-purpose devices. Theoretically, you can turn off the Wi-Fi, put the writing app in focus mode, turn off notifications and avoid googling and looking at email and twitter. In practice, it is nearly impossible to do so. Which is why there are so many focus apps, pomodoro timers etc. It takes a lot of will power to avoid distractions. Unlike a Kindle this thing can be used to key in text. It certainly has a niche. What we don’t know is how big that niche is, and whether it will cause others to adopt non-distractive devices.

SapporoChris 4y ago

After reading the article and the Hacker News comments, I have to wonder if the approach is wrong. Instead of using e-ink which does have it's merits but has a very poor refresh rate, why not use an algorithm to adjust typical laptop screens to be more visible in sunlight conditions. Second thought, smartphones are really on the cutting edge of display technology. If e-ink was viable, wouldn't we be seeing at least some e-ink smartphones?

scoopertrooper 4y ago
E-ink smartphones do exist. https://www.e-ink-info.com/e-ink-devices/mobile-phones https://www.e-ink-info.com/e-ink-devices/mobile-phones
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 4y ago
  YotaPhone-style devices always seemed like such a great idea. The back of a phone is 90% useless, and the front of a phone is largely useless in direct sunlight. Making the back of a phone an e-reader just sounds awesome, especially for larger phones.
spaniard89277 4y ago
The refresh rate is no longer a product, look for Boox and Dasung PC displays.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  I have not seen those. But based on my experience with other eInk displays, I suspect they are downplaying their refresh rate issues. I don't doubt they are better than previous eInk displays, but I suspect no one would watch a movie on those eInk displays and claim it's anything close to, say, OLED for example. Good enough? I would have to try one out.
  - spaniard89277 4y ago
    You have people reviewing them in YT. LGTM.

peterburkimsher 4y ago

What is the highest PPI, pocket-sized, e-ink display? I'm imagining a 3.5" handheld device for kids, that can't be broken. Very low power. Could show comics or other graphics, but usually just text. The maximum information density would be to fill that "cheat sheet" with Traditional Chinese characters, written top to bottom, left to right. And that depends on the PPI. https://www.quora.com/Can-literate-Chinese-people-easily-read-vertical-writing https://www.quora.com/Can-literate-Chinese-people-easily-rea...

robin_reala 4y ago
I’m living proof that it’s possible to break e-ink displays without any real effort.
- peterburkimsher 4y ago
  Are they stronger than LCDs?
  - robin_reala 4y ago
    I’ve broken more e-ink displays (2) than LCDs (0?), but it could be because they ereaders tend to be left in unexpected places. But either way, they’re not tricky to crush, and the failure mode is much the same as LCDs.
  - AlanYx 4y ago
    E-ink panels come in two types, one with a flexible backplane and one with a rigid blackplane. The former are durable and resistant to blunt blows; the latter are not. The ones with a flexible backplane don't necessarily require a rigid polycarbonate covering layer; there are commercial devices like the Fujitsu Quaderno that just use them raw. But if you were targeting young children who might take sharp objects to the screen, you'd want to use a covering layer.
    - peterburkimsher 4y ago
      Thank you! I think a flexible backplane is good for wearable electronics, and a rigid covering layer (polycarbonate or glass) is better for typing on a keyboard.

frou_dh 4y ago

Using a typical desktop operating system, but on an eInk screen, is one of those things that sounds cool, but I suspect the reality after using it for a while will be "Never mind, this sucks, because no software (including the OS itself) was designed with working well on sluggish & image-persistence-afflicted panels in mind". I think doing this concept properly is as much of a software project as a hardware project.

solarkraft 4y ago
I use normal Android apps on my R-Reader. With some contrast settings and animations (mostly) turned off it's quite nice. However the animations that are still around (loading spinner, animated GIF) can be quite annoying. A mouse pointer may itself be a bit hard to display on an E-Ink Screen. It will definitely leave a trail behind.
GekkePrutser 4y ago
If you work mainly in terminals it will be OK I think. Something like i3 and off you go.
PMunch 4y ago
I have some insight in this as I'm currently building a very similar project myself. I'm using off-the-shelf components and the relatively cheap USB driver board for the 10.3" ePaper display is more than capable enough of showing a variety of content. Typing in a document or code is plenty fast, scrolling a webpage is usable, but you'd probably want to use PgUp/PgDown, moving the mouse around is fine but I'm using a tiling window manager to avoid having to drag windows around. I'm able to drive video, but it's quite choppy. In general small updates are plenty fast (like showing characters next to a cursor) and big updates are slow (like full screen video playback). Playing video in a small window is fine if you just want to get some information out of it. All these speeds are in a dithered 1-bit mode though. As soon as you start playing around with grayscale things starts going slow (you essentially need to display N levels of grayscale as N frames). The system I'm using is capable of updating parts of the display in 1-bit mode and others in "high-fidelity" 16 levels mode. This means that I could e.g. tell it that my picture viewing program should use the full quality mode, and my text editor should use the fast mode. Since I'm using a tiling window manager opening a picture would then use about a second to display the image, but once it's there I could type into a window next to it at full speed. It could also allow me to highlight areas to redraw in high-quality mode if I was browsing a website for example and wanted to watch a particular image.

microflash 4y ago

After years of trying different things, I have come to a conclusion that any variation of technology is not going to help from distractions until and unless you excercise discipline and restraint. Dialing back from the things that distract you can work with any technology. Healthy eating, excercising and sleep can do wonders. Walking away from "digital" world for some time can work too.

Loughla 4y ago
For me, it's like quitting smoking. I couldn't do it cold turkey, it took trying many different things to 'wean' myself off of nicotine. Technology is the same. I noticed I was getting distracted when I carried a tablet for work. So I replaced it with a remarkable. No more easy distraction = no more distraction. So for some (especially those of us with addictive personalities), it is about finding supplementary aides to help with that discipline and restraint.
coryfklein 4y ago
> any variation of technology is not going to help from distractions until and unless you excercise discipline and restraint There's definitely a feedback cycle here though. Swap your dazzling iPhone 14 Pro Max for an iPhone 4S and then change the display to greyscale and see just how fast this technological solution reduces your levels of distraction. Of course as you say it alone isn't a panacea: doing that is painful. But live with the pain long enough, and you've now used technology as a crutch to change your brain to expect the distraction less. Here are some other technological solutions that I have found helpful: * News Feed Eradicator: a browser plugin that hides those algorithmic news feeds that are the cocaine of the internet * Unhook - Remove YouTube Recommended Videos: removes the sidebar on YouTube * Podcasts - Even if you "already know" all the psychological tricks the world is pulling on you, your brain is programmable and if you simply listen and re-listen to Tristan Harris on a regular basis this imprints these lessons into your head. That, in turn, provides a well of motivation that can be used when the lure of addiction presents itself.
- incanus77 4y ago
  > There's definitely a feedback cycle here though. Swap your dazzling iPhone 14 Pro Max for an iPhone 4S and then change the display to greyscale and see just how fast this technological solution reduces your levels of distraction. This worked for me. A few years back, I turned down everything (black background, no icons on home screen, no auto-wake on raise) on my iPhone SE (original version) and removed all social and mail apps. I’m still on this phone, both for this and for (small) size reasons. Other than direct texts from people who need to reach me (which I liberally put into Do Not Disturb from time to time), I don’t get any notifications on my device. It’s wonderful. I eventually brought back Mail, mostly because I was using it for address references or communications during things like Craigslist transactions, but I no longer check it unless I’m looking for something in particular. Along these lines, for all apps I install, I deny notifications by default, then consider (and often, don’t) enabling them for functionality that I need later on. Though I don’t do as much as I used to (I’ve mixed in many other platforms), I do contract iOS development from time to time. I typically use my (also 5+ year old) iPad Pro for either iPhone/iPad development. When I need actual phone testing, while my SE is a little slow, the bigger problem I run into there more frequently is screen size considerations — even some of Apple’s apps assume you have more screen real estate and cut things off awkwardly. > Of course as you say it alone isn't a panacea: doing that is painful. But live with the pain long enough, and you've now used technology as a crutch to change your brain to expect the distraction less. Absolutely — a great way to put it.

nerdy_nerd101 4y ago

I was legit dreaming about a laptop with e-ink display to help with eye-strain and then saw this post. Hope this product gets to market and sells enough units so that it becomes more common!

alex-a-soto 4y ago
Thank you for your kind words, it means a lot; I and others share your desire to use a laptop with an e-ink display and we are working it.

bichonnages 4y ago

I wish there was a dedicated distraction-free OS. I would just install it on my old MacBook Air. A word processor and a basic file system (with possibly a link to Dropbox or something). That's it. That would be amazing. [edit] as mentioned here: http://www.suppertime.co.uk/blogmywiki/2019/07/distraction-free-writing-os/ http://www.suppertime.co.uk/blogmywiki/2019/07/distraction-f...

Grumbledour 4y ago
I have been wondering if something like https://gtoolkit.com/ https://gtoolkit.com/ would fit the bill, though I have to admit I find it a bit hard to grok. But having a form of interactive notebook running as an OS on a simple device could be a really powerful computing experience.
alex-a-soto 4y ago
Hi, thanks for sharing the Glamorous Toolkit; I have looked into it in the past, and it reminds me of Emacs 'modability'. I'm working on a blog post about what a dedicated distraction-free OS would look like.

blenderdt 4y ago

An alternative is an E-ink monitor. Recently Onyx released a 25" version. But it is expensive, around $1700 https://onyxboox.com/boox_mirapro https://onyxboox.com/boox_mirapro

robin_reala 4y ago
Dasung do one as well, presumably with the same panel. One thing I’m wondering is what’s the power draw of these screens? Ereaders famously sip power, but that’s due to the race-to-zero environment. If you’re running these on a 60fps HDMI connection how do they stack up against LCDs?
itwy 4y ago
Do they have good support of the monitor needs repair? Any experience?
abawany 4y ago
Also the 32" reflective lcd from Sunvision: https://www.sunvisiondisplay.com/product/SVD-32-Color-RLCD-Computer-Monitor https://www.sunvisiondisplay.com/product/SVD-32-Color-RLCD-C... . The "My Deep Guide" person has made about 3 hours of video to review it and it seems impressive so far.

tengwar2 4y ago

I do a lot of writing, but I find that the idea of a distraction free environment doesn't work for me because I need to refer to external material too often. It doesn't matter whether it is for reviewing engineering projects, writing sermons or eulogies for funerals, or doing academic work (I have a bit of an odd lifestyle), I always need to use more than the editor or word-processor. I could see how it might work for a poet, but I'm not that. If you are one of the people for whom a low-distraction environment works, could you say what sort of stuff you are writing?

nathias 4y ago
Philosophy, but I divide the work of research and writing into separate activities. This isn't great from a productivity/quantitative aspect, but it's much better for quality.
- nine_k 4y ago
  So, you can honestly say: "Now I've found enough, and whatever questions I may have during the writing I can answer with what I've found"? That's a... superpower.
  - jokethrowaway 4y ago
    I rarely (twice a month? I don't remember the last time) search something online when I'm working on something at work (personal projects are the total opposite). We try to limit dependencies because they are security risks and work is basically implementing slightly different services doing more or less the same things with a slightly different architecture. I'd love to have less eye strain for the worthless time I'm spending in front of a computer in order to make money. I'm worried the refresh rate speed won't be pleasant enough though: typing on my kindle is a pain. On top of that, a huge portion of my paid time is spent in equally worthless video meetings so I would need some other device, regardless.
  - nathias 4y ago
    Yes, it helps if you are an expert in the field and have a broad overview and are working on things that aren't popular.

nathias 4y ago

I use the Pomera DM100, the only thing that bothers me is the keyboard ...

alex-a-soto 4y ago
Great, I use a Pomera DM30, and it's a lovely portable device, although it takes some to adjust to the keyboard.

youhavetosayit 4y ago

This is my dream, please. Make the refresh rate slightly too slow for videos, I'm buying 5, thanks <3

moffkalast 4y ago
Ironically, the end product will likely be unable to render that webpage they made to pitch the idea properly.

GekkePrutser 4y ago

I would love this. However, Waveshare whose epaper displays I use a lot always say they are not suitable for working in direct sunlight. Which is kinda the one thing such a laptop would really shine at. So, would this be suitable? PS: Front View and Side View show a svelte laptop but the "Chassis" photo shows a Lenovo/IBM T41? I assume this is a prototype and not the actual chassis. I wonder if they would sell the display they put in those T41 prototypes, I still have a T42 lying around that would come in handy for this.

phil294 4y ago
Sorry I don't have an answer, only more questions on this. I also read about this limitation. Perhaps it's more of a warranty issue and direct sunlight exposure merely reduces the lifespan by a few percent. Given that you have been using Waveshare displays a lot already, what are your observations on this? Is it really problematic? I've been using an ancient ebook reader for reading recently, and contrast will be washed out to about 50% when exposed to sun while page flipping (until next refresh). However, I've been thinking this is due to the old age of the device.
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  I haven't really used them as such, no. Just used them in a few electronics projects. I have to say though that waveshare's displays are of pretty low quality. They are designed to be used in electronic price tags in stores and as such will never see daylight. I've used an old Kindle in sunlight and I had no issues, but if I'd buy a laptop like this for a significant price I'd want to be sure of course.
alex-a-soto 4y ago
Yes, this was for our prototype and not the actual chassis. We have had conversations about building additional T41 prototypes for the pilot program and or selling them. It's something we will revisit in the future.

pmlnr 4y ago

I beg you: make it with the old ThinkPad keyboard, including the trackpoint with 3 physical buttons.

alex-a-soto 4y ago
As an owner of multiple Thinkpads and a fan of the classic IBM keyboards, I hear you loud and clear.

Loughla 4y ago

Oh man. I would absolutely buy this today if it was available. Switching from a tablet to a remarkable helped my work focus one million percent. Switching to that from a laptop for everything else can only help, too (he says while writing this on said laptop instead of prepping for the next meeting).

rbanffy 4y ago

With an ePaper display that size this machine will be extremely expensive. The main factor providing the distraction free environment could be the Armlogic processor making it uncomfortable to browse the web (although 4 A73 cores isn’t bad at all).

spoonjim 4y ago

What matters for something like this is not the idea but the execution. This page is little more than “I’m going to build a battery car” or “I’m going to build a reusable rocket.” What you want to see instead is descriptions of the hardware projects that the founding team has successfully shipped. A major hint of trouble is “we’re accepting applications.” A team that is likely to succeed here would have a core founding team in place, not just a Wordpress post.

alex-a-soto 4y ago
Thank you for the feedback, it's appreciated, and we are working on it.
ricksunny 4y ago
Isn't this just a rehashing of the value-less pop business advice, "In order to be big, be big already'. It's an open-source venture, crowdsourcing talent. They're not making statements that they have to be the greatest thing since sliced bread.
- spoonjim 4y ago
  Show me a blog post like this that has led to shipped hardware

bee_rider 4y ago

I wonder if something like this would fit easily within the Framework, uh, framework.

michaelmior 4y ago
That was one of my first thoughts too. It would be awesome if this could simply be yet another display module for the Framework Laptop. It seems as though Framework uses EDP (Embedded Display Port) so an e-Ink display of the correct dimensions which uses EDP would work in theory. Although I'd imagine there would be some work to be done to make it function well.
- rcoder 4y ago
  The physical connector is unfortunately not an indicator that the hardware and software needed to drive an e-Ink display will be similar to an LCD. Sadly, e-Ink displays require custom drivers to function at all, and in particular partial refresh (needed to get sub-second updates) requires targeting known dirty regions of the display and updating just those…hence the extra ghosting in the higher-speed mode of most ebook readers & etc. that use EPDs.
  - michaelmior 4y ago
    I understand that. My point was that the Framework Laptop uses a standard connector so it's at least possible in theory. (Perhaps EDP is very common, I'm not familiar with the space at all.) In any case, partial refresh is obviously not something that one could expect to work without additional effort.

voidhorse 4y ago

I love the look of e-ink but I’ve been skeptical of using it for work ever since trying a few devices with e-ink screens—the latency of an eink screen can be a lot higher if the manufacturer doesn’t get it right, which is fine for some use cases but can be really annoying for others, such as typing. For those looking for a distraction free, portable writing experience specifically, check out the pomera dm 200. It does not use eink but has a UI that sports a very similar look and feel to eink devices. It’s responsive, extremely portable, and only supports writing text. It’s Japanese, so the UI is in Japanese only, but you can write using English characters.

e-_pusher 4y ago

For my distraction-free writing, the solution I found was to buy a 1992 grayscale LCD 386 laptop. I can do writing in Word that I have installed on Windows 3.1 and then open them later on my modern day computer with a floppy disk drive. This setup works great and I can help answer questions if anyone is curious. I was going to write a blog post about this but I ended up sitting on the draft for too long and forgot about it, I really should publish that post :)

0des 4y ago
Are you always connected to power? I kept a few old laptops that would be practically useless today, but always wanted to resurrect for simple offline things. The biggest issue I have is power when off the charger. I think my best laptop is 45 minutes or so per charge. At one point I even bought extra batteries and kept them safely stored and dry, only to realize that this does almost nothing to preserve their longevity as now years later I find them all to have about the same lifespan. I have extra 18650 batteries, however Im not sure, given the size of these, that this is what they use in there.
- e-_pusher 4y ago
  Yes the battery is long dead, so I always run it off of wall power. I have though about making a 3D printed modern day battery that is shaped like a NiMh battery of old, but has LiIon batteries inside, gets charged off of USBC, and provides voltage at the same level that the original NiMh would provide. Should be doable, but never got around to it.
  - 0des 4y ago
    That seems pretty complicated, I like it.
  - the_biot 4y ago
    That sounds like a fun project, but I think you're overthinking how hard this needs to be. Instead of 3D printing an enclosure to fit the laptop, just fill it out with some goop like sugru or something. It just has to not rattle, is all. For voltage, just get some cheap buck converter board off Ebay, one that you can adjust down to the voltage the laptop needs, and have your battery pack a higher voltage than that. And a Li-Ion BMS board to charge it of course.

eBombzor 4y ago

On Windows: Settings > Accessibility > Color Filters > Grayscale helps a lot for me.

binkHN 4y ago

I, basically, had this back in college. I realize I’m dating myself now, but, back before laptops were inexpensively available, I had a “mobile electric typewriter.” No Internet and I simply used it to write my term papers while away from school or home/on the beach. It was somewhat bulky and had a small screen, but I was able to write my papers without white-out and I had no distractions from the technology.

sj4nz 4y ago

Usable in direct sunlight? When will this product ship?

JoelMcCracken 4y ago

I really want this. My daily driver is a macbook pro and I use a boox max lumi as my main programming display. I'd love to have a laptop with this built in.

RistrettoMike 4y ago

Chucking in another hearty "I'm interested!" I currently use several modern laptops in tandem with an Onyx Boox tablet, but would love to offload even more of my use cases that make sense to e-ink. Followed the Twitter account, and am looking forward to more updates on what this turns out to be! Wouldn't mind seeing them here on HN either ;)

johnchristopher 4y ago

Hope it works out and it'll pay those utility bills ^^.

steveylang 4y ago

This reminds me of the Pixel Qi screens that promised cheaper notebooks with really long battery life (and was used in the OLPC.) Today's backlit e-ink screens do seem more promising, although the versatility of a computer using a slow refresh screen really hurts it. For the right price it could be useful and find its niche.

dcchambers 4y ago

If you want a distraction and eye-strain-free writing device that's currently available, your best option right now is probably a ReMarkable Tablet + third party software + keyboard plugged in via USB OTG. Take a look at Keywriter: https://github.com/dps/remarkable-keywriter https://github.com/dps/remarkable-keywriter Stick it in a 3D printed clamshell case and boom, you've got yourself a basic e-ink laptop/writing device.

vlark 4y ago

The best distraction-free device is a notebook and a pencil. Now, if you really want to get distracted, start trying to decide which notebook with which grade of paper and which pencil with which type of lead.

kcplate 4y ago

Projects like this always remind my of John Mayer’s Steve Jobs story… John Mayer to Steve Jobs: “Why don’t you bring out a vintage looking MacBook G3 Pismo, but with all new guts inside?” Steve Jobs: “Because we would sell 14 of them.” Edit: #6 https://youtu.be/bTkRdVPM9fs https://youtu.be/bTkRdVPM9fs

elviejo 4y ago

What I want is a frame.work laptop that uses an eink screen. There are many 13.3 inch eink in panels so maybe it isn't for somebody with the right skills to do this.

dredmorbius 4y ago

This definitely looks interesting. As noted in thread, I've been using an e-paper device, the Onyx BOOX Max Lumi, for about a year. It's my strong preference for reading, and I do some Linux-type stuff on it, mostly through Termux. A few thoughts: - If you think you're going to avoid distraction simply by changing the screen properties ... you're likely to be disappointed. Though desaturation and reducing animations does no doubt help. You and your environment remain your biggest enemy. - Shutting off WiFi is your biggest win for productivity. - High-density, high-contrast, B&W display is a pleasure to read. - The lack of tools to schedule / manage / organise tasks and resources on my tablet itself is a huge frustration. Much of that is the lack of tools to view / manage content metadata. If you're reading a book at a time, or 2, or 10, that's not such a problem. I treat my tablet as a library, with 100s to 1,000s of references / documents available. There are no tools to effectively manage these. - Much of the problem with content presentation online is not due to shortcomings of the PDF format itself, but of displays. Simply having a large enough and portrait-mode display is a huge win. "Large enough" starts at about 9", though I'd recommend 10" -- 13" for the sweet spot. A problem of course is that you want to accommodate the worst cases you're likely to encounter, and for me that's three-column, small-font, scanned in journal and periodicals articles. 13" is almost too big for standard book reading, but it's awfully nice for handwritten notes. - Having a fixed keyboard at all times might actually be a disadvantage. Being able to flexibly transition from tablet to laptop seems a useful option. - There's a stunning amount that can be done at shell and with fairly minimal system capabilities. Serving up the modern Web is not amongst these. The degree to which a web browser absolutely pigs out a system really cannot be overstated. This is sad and a Very Bad Thing.[1] - Android sucks. - I really cannot express in words how much Android sucks. I'd desperately like to have some sort of e-ink / mobile / portable device that isn't based on Android or iOS. Real Motherlovin' Linux would be awesomesauce. That said, the more you pile onto a mobile platform, the more battery life will suck. Some compromises simply have to be made. - Android sucks specifically because: 1. The OS management is not geared to constand usage. 2. User state is constantly lost/discarded. 3. The app ecosystem is abysmal. 4. Filesystem access is walled off. 5. The device owner is subordinate to the system and OS, and lacks root by default. 6. Such arcane matters as handling keyboard input consistently across applications seem to be Deep And Insurmountable Mysteries Of The Universe. 7. Google Play Is Motherfucking Spyware. 8. Google. 9. This is not the end. It's not the beginning. It's not even the beginning nof the prelude of the introduction of the preface of the beginning. - Which raises some interesting prospects for battery-sparing power. A very lightweight terminal handler (reads keystrokes, updates display), paired with a larger system that fires up when Other Shit Needs Doing, such that the platform is effectively catnapping most of the time, might work out. How often the system wakes and processes is an interesting question, but that might be anywhere from every few seconds to every few minutes. The key is for wake/sleep to draw less power than remaining on constantly. On mains power, wake would persist for longer. An audio-output channel might also remain more persistently awake. - So long as E-Ink (the company) controls patents and production, e-paper display costs will be high. I don't know what the BOM for Onyx's display is, but suspect it's a major share of the device's final $800 cost. That means that everything else will have to fall into whatever residual budget exists. Yes, the laptop will be expensive relative to its processor / memory / storage specs. OTOH, it's probably possible to economise considerably on graphics. - Prototyping this as a display module option for the Framework laptop[2] might be really interesting. - If presented as a desktop, optimisations for E-Ink will be necessary. How much of this is attainable through existing desktop environments/software, and how much needs customisation, remains to be seen. I espect some significant teething pains in this area. This applies to both the graphical shell and applications. Einkbro, an e-ink optimised Web browser (Android) is a good study in what optimisations are useful. If anything, the app does not go far enough in favouring paging to scrolling, IMO. - Some sort of dedicated hard screen refresh is likely necessary. Ghosting is tolerable to a point, and then it's not. Giving the user an option to refresh seems highly useful. - The ability to divide the screen into different regions of different refresh/quality modes would be useful. Text -> "Regal", scrolling "Speed" or "A2" mode, animations / video, "X Mode". These would probably be assigned either by appllcation, or by content within applications --- e.g., video -> X Mode, images -> Speed. (In my experience, the halftoning / dithering of Speed and A2 modes is actually preferable to "Regal" for images. "Regal" is best suited to text and handwriting.) This is all but certainly an E-Ink / vendor issue, and not something Modos would be able to address themselves, though there might be hooks / conversions in the graphics layer (Xorg or Wayland?) that would address this. - Modos all but certainly wants to use a tiled / tiling-friendly window manager. - In addition to the display, I'd like to see a decent audio system, with hardwired audio output and no onboard speaker. Both audio media (e.g., podcasts) and voice comms should be an available function of the device. (Use for voice comms would probably entail battery/performance compromises, podcast playback largely should not.) ________________________________ Notes: 1. How to fix this is of course one of the Perennial Conversations and a Hard Problem. I'm increasingly of the view to 1) split the web into a) content, b) applications, c) media, and d) commerce, and to impose extreme penalties on poorly-performing and standards-noncompliant sites. Of course, a major driver of all of this is monetisation and control, both of which are their own long digressions. But unless these are addressed, no technical fixes will suffice. Defeat the system itself. 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28606962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28606962 https://pluralistic.net/2021/09/21/monica-byrne/#think-different https://pluralistic.net/2021/09/21/monica-byrne/#think-diffe...