4 ms·

"Great success" is relative... In my small EU country, this has created a caste of low-paying jobs that only immigrants do, and the hiring process usually goes

"Great success" is relative... In my small EU country, this has created a caste of low-paying jobs that only immigrants do, and the hiring process usually goes along "put out an ad, offer minimum pay" - "noone local wants to do that job for minimum wage" - "complain you can't get workers" - "get work visas for foreigners". This would/could be mitigated by raising the minimum wage for foreign workers (eg., you need a cleaning lady, the pay for a foreign worker must be atleast 1.5x the average pay currently working cleaning ladies get, so they'll try to get a local for atleast 1.499x the average pay first and then if really desparate hire a foreigner).

lambda 4y ago
We have plenty of the low-paying jobs that only immigrants do in the US as well. Some are via temporary work visas, some are via undocumented immigrants. The fact that they are undocumented immigrants means that they have very few legal protections, which makes it a lot easier for employers to exploit them.
aaomidi 4y ago
If you also pay immigrants well, they actually integrate well. A huge barrier to integration is lack of social mobility. Europe hasn't really closed the class gap between Europeans and immigrants (either economic immigrants, or escaping a shit country immigrant)
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  But if you pay well, you also get the locals to do the job. I know higly educated people in demand (scientists, engineers,...) are well paid anywhere, but "free immigration" would bring in a lot of people, bringing a lot of jobs down to minimum wage or even lower.
  - aaomidi 4y ago
    I mean all of this needs executive pay to not keep skyrocketing vs everyone else.
barry-cotter 4y ago
> In my small EU country, this has created a caste of low-paying jobs that only immigrants do, and the hiring process usually goes along "put out an ad, offer minimum pay" - "noone local wants to do that job for minimum wage" - "complain you can't get workers" - "get work visas for foreigners" Where? This doesn’t sound like the Irish experience at all. Another small EU country.
- known 4y ago
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  Your teenagers come over to USA in the summer and do those low paying jobs.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  I live in slovenia, stuff like construcion, cleaning/housekeeping, garbage disposal, etc. is mostly done by (more) southern balkan people (bosnians, serbs, albanians, etc.). Even if you go further north (austria, germany, switzerland,...), it's easier to talk to eg. construction workers if you know any of the ex-yugoslav languages, than using eg. german.
Animats 4y ago
Raising the minimum wage for foreign workers Now that's a good idea. Right now, there's "E-Verify", through which employers can verify immigration status. But it's not mandatory. Jobs that don't require E-Verify should have to pay at least 2x the state minimum wage. Farmers who depend on exploiting cheap labor oppose this. They even have a lobby for that.[1] They'd be using slaves if they could get away with it. [1] https://www.fb.org/issues/immigration-reform/e-verify/ https://www.fb.org/issues/immigration-reform/e-verify/
sgjohnson 4y ago
> In my small EU country, this has created a caste of low-paying jobs that only immigrants do This is flat out false. While it’s true that there’s a lot of internal migration from poorer EU countries to richer ones due to significantly higher pay for unskilled/low-skilled labour, almost none of the people taking them can be considered immigrants, because very few of them have the intention of long-term relocation. They all almost universally move for a couple of years to make and save some money and then return back to their countries. And there absolutely are locals even in the richest EU countries doing minimum wage jobs. But they also aren’t doing them for long. There’s just a significantly larger pool of people willing to take them.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  > very few of them have the intention of long-term relocation Yep, and they all build huge houses in the balkans, that they then never visit, because they stay in austria/germany/switzerland/..., because after 30 years living abroad, they have noone left "back at home", their kids go to school in EU, and finished school there, and don't want to move back either, their doctors are there, their pensions are there, their friends are there, so they stay. Sure, there are a few locals doing some minimum wage jobs, but on pretty much every construction site across europe (and especially the countries mentioned above), you'll be able to communicate using one of the ex-yugoslav languages.
  - sgjohnson 4y ago
    > because after 30 years living abroad The EU expansion where the poorest countries joined happened in 2004., and mass migration didn't really happen until the aftermath of 2008, so it's 15 years at most. > they have noone left "back at home", their kids go to school in EU This is not true for most. They have plenty of friends and extended family is back home. > their pensions are there You can collect your pension from one EU country in another. > so they stay. No idea about migration from Balkans, but it's provably false for migration from the Eastern EU members. Even to the English speaking countries (UK, Ireland), where the language barrier is less of an issue.

lambda 4y ago

We have plenty of the low-paying jobs that only immigrants do in the US as well. Some are via temporary work visas, some are via undocumented immigrants. The fact that they are undocumented immigrants means that they have very few legal protections, which makes it a lot easier for employers to exploit them.

aaomidi 4y ago

If you also pay immigrants well, they actually integrate well. A huge barrier to integration is lack of social mobility. Europe hasn't really closed the class gap between Europeans and immigrants (either economic immigrants, or escaping a shit country immigrant)

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
But if you pay well, you also get the locals to do the job. I know higly educated people in demand (scientists, engineers,...) are well paid anywhere, but "free immigration" would bring in a lot of people, bringing a lot of jobs down to minimum wage or even lower.
- aaomidi 4y ago
  I mean all of this needs executive pay to not keep skyrocketing vs everyone else.

barry-cotter 4y ago

> In my small EU country, this has created a caste of low-paying jobs that only immigrants do, and the hiring process usually goes along "put out an ad, offer minimum pay" - "noone local wants to do that job for minimum wage" - "complain you can't get workers" - "get work visas for foreigners" Where? This doesn’t sound like the Irish experience at all. Another small EU country.

known 4y ago
selimthegrim 4y ago
Your teenagers come over to USA in the summer and do those low paying jobs.
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
I live in slovenia, stuff like construcion, cleaning/housekeeping, garbage disposal, etc. is mostly done by (more) southern balkan people (bosnians, serbs, albanians, etc.). Even if you go further north (austria, germany, switzerland,...), it's easier to talk to eg. construction workers if you know any of the ex-yugoslav languages, than using eg. german.

Animats 4y ago

Raising the minimum wage for foreign workers Now that's a good idea. Right now, there's "E-Verify", through which employers can verify immigration status. But it's not mandatory. Jobs that don't require E-Verify should have to pay at least 2x the state minimum wage. Farmers who depend on exploiting cheap labor oppose this. They even have a lobby for that.[1] They'd be using slaves if they could get away with it. [1] https://www.fb.org/issues/immigration-reform/e-verify/ https://www.fb.org/issues/immigration-reform/e-verify/

sgjohnson 4y ago

> In my small EU country, this has created a caste of low-paying jobs that only immigrants do This is flat out false. While it’s true that there’s a lot of internal migration from poorer EU countries to richer ones due to significantly higher pay for unskilled/low-skilled labour, almost none of the people taking them can be considered immigrants, because very few of them have the intention of long-term relocation. They all almost universally move for a couple of years to make and save some money and then return back to their countries. And there absolutely are locals even in the richest EU countries doing minimum wage jobs. But they also aren’t doing them for long. There’s just a significantly larger pool of people willing to take them.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
> very few of them have the intention of long-term relocation Yep, and they all build huge houses in the balkans, that they then never visit, because they stay in austria/germany/switzerland/..., because after 30 years living abroad, they have noone left "back at home", their kids go to school in EU, and finished school there, and don't want to move back either, their doctors are there, their pensions are there, their friends are there, so they stay. Sure, there are a few locals doing some minimum wage jobs, but on pretty much every construction site across europe (and especially the countries mentioned above), you'll be able to communicate using one of the ex-yugoslav languages.
- sgjohnson 4y ago
  > because after 30 years living abroad The EU expansion where the poorest countries joined happened in 2004., and mass migration didn't really happen until the aftermath of 2008, so it's 15 years at most. > they have noone left "back at home", their kids go to school in EU This is not true for most. They have plenty of friends and extended family is back home. > their pensions are there You can collect your pension from one EU country in another. > so they stay. No idea about migration from Balkans, but it's provably false for migration from the Eastern EU members. Even to the English speaking countries (UK, Ireland), where the language barrier is less of an issue.