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In the US/Iraq war such contraptions were commonly referred to as EFPs (explosively formed penetrators). My platoon was once hit by a four-array EFP that was hu

In the US/Iraq war such contraptions were commonly referred to as EFPs (explosively formed penetrators). My platoon was once hit by a four-array EFP that was hung behind a cement wall (US forces would often line streets with barricades like this) so we couldn't see it. It went through the concrete wall, the humvee, and took some legs with it. Brutal things they were. We avoided prolonged truck excursions, but I remember we used to always sit with our arms and legs as staggered as possible--The thought being that if an EFP went through, you might get lucky and only lose one arm/leg instead of two. Of course it probably didn't help... but whatever.

root_axis 4y ago
That sounds pretty scary. I hope you made it out ok.
hedgehog 4y ago
Devious. The assassination of Alfred Herrhausen is I think the textbook example of this technique: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Herrhausen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Herrhausen
- sofixa 4y ago
  Interesting, thanks for sharing. A few things stand out (spoilers of course) - the Chairman of Deutsche Bank had an armoured convoy with two vehicles with bodyguards. It makes sense seeing that someone was trying to kill him, but outside of that context it seems a lot. Most European politicians, including heads of state and government, have less today. Second, he bled to death. I wonder what circumstances led to this, was the car too badly mangled and nobody could come to his aid? It's not something that happens instantaneously, i think, so there's some time to react. But maybe the blood loss couldn't be stopped ( severed legs, is there something that could be done? Would a tourniquet help?). No idea
  - spiffistan 4y ago
    Also rather interesting that Vladimir Putin is thought to have been involved as the RAF handler, if those sources are veritable.
    - zeristor 4y ago
      Also I heard on a History podcast, but can’t yet find any supporting evidence, that the Soviet Union funded the anti-nuclear power movement in West Germany leading to a dependence on Russian Gas. Like I said if this is credible there should be some evidence, but I’d conjecture that perhaps Putin could have been part of that too I’d have thought people would be crowing about that if it was the case.
      - sofixa 4y ago
        In a similar vein, albeit with less geopolitics, Big Oil companies funded various environmental groups' anti-nuclear stances and protests, in order to solidify their grip on the energy market.
      - londons_explore 4y ago
        Even now, talking about it would lead to a quicker swing back to nuclear power hurting russia's interests.
        dividedbyzero 4y ago
        Germany is already well on its way to try out renewables in earnest, so the anti-nuclear camp's arguments seem to have convinced a majority of the voters and environmentalists, socialists, conservatives all pushed this when in power. The arguments backing this wouldn't change, so I don't think such a revelation would have a big impact on German energy policy. Besides, the pro-nuclear camp has always had very deep pockets, so I guess whatever funds the Soviet Union/Russia might have provided would have at best/worst only leveled the playing field somewhat. Disclosing this might end some careers, though.
      - Arnt 4y ago
        Extremely implausible. The anti-nuclear movement wasn't driven by money. Still isn't. The organisations that wanted nuclear power used money, the ones against used people's time. https://www.sueddeutsche.de/image/sz.1.3984639/1408x792 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/image/sz.1.3984639/1408x792 >1% of the population attended that demonstration, and demonstrations that big matter. But they're not a matter of payment. People weren't paid to go there, they didn't even have their travel costs reimbursed: You can't reimburse 100k people and hope to keep that secret. You can't even reimburse the ~5k organisers.
  - conradev 4y ago
    You have about three minutes for an arterial bleed. Perhaps less for two arterial bleeds. The proper technique would indeed to be tourniquet the legs, which you can do with anything (like strips of cloth) as long as you can make it tight enough.
  - this_steve_j 4y ago
    The explosive device contained approximately 22 pounds of TNT, and detonated 3 feet away from the right rear passenger door.
    - fsckboy 4y ago
      a small point, but wikipedia says "The 7 kg bomb was hidden in a bag" which would be 15 lbs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Herrhausen#Assassination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Herrhausen#Assassinatio...
  - saberdancer 4y ago
    It does say his legs were severed. So probably massive bleeding immediately and with the damage to the car, there was no chance to save him.
- this_steve_j 4y ago
  > When Herrhausen's motorcade approached the attack site, the lookout waited for the lead car to pass by the bike, then radioed to the terrorist in the bushes who quickly activated the beam. Herrhausen's vehicle broke the beam which triggered the electronic detonator in the bomb. The front of Herrhausen's car broke the beam at the precise moment the back right seat, where Herrhausen was sitting, was directly across from the bomb. The force of the explosion was aimed at where Herrhausen was sitting. The bomb was placed on a child's bike to match the height of the back right door of the armored vehicle. To develop this attack, the terrorists had to compute the speed of the car, the length of the car, and the height of the back right door. As his car passed the bike, at 8:34 a.m., the bike exploded and some 22 pounds of TNT propelled schrapnel through the right rear door, forcing a piece of the armored door into Herrhausen, pushing him across the back seat into the left door. The force of the explo- sion, which took place 3 feet away from the right rear door of Herrhausen's vehicle, threw the 2.8 ton armored vehicle across the street, approximately 82 feet. The driver was slightly injured. https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/153346NCJRS.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/153346NCJRS.pdf
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    >To develop this attack, the terrorists had to compute the speed of the car... if the explosive went off more or less instantly, the speed of the car would not matter, not that it would be difficult to estimate anyway.
- simonebrunozzi 4y ago
  Please link to Desktop version of wikipedia articles [0], or articles in general. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Herrhausen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Herrhausen
  - hedgehog 4y ago
    Apologies, too late to edit now.
jade-m 4y ago
I think you mean the US invasion of Iraq
- jakear 4y ago
  Vouched for this. Names are important, it’s disingenuous to suggest US and Iraq played an equal role in initiating the engagement. Do we call it the Russia/Ukraine war or the Russian invasion of Ukraine?
  - IMTDb 4y ago
    We call them : The Iraq War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War) and the Russo-Ukrainian War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War) This is a discussion about a special kind of explosive and a first hand story on how it is used in a conflict. Leave politics aside.
    - account-5 4y ago
      > The Iraq War was a protracted armed conflict in Iraq from 2003 to 2011 that began with the *invasion of Iraq by the United States–led coalition*... Whilst I agree that the preceding comments are off topic with their own inflammatory agenda's I do think it's important in generally acknowledging the war was caused by a US led invasion based on lies. Disclaimer: I fought there and lost people there, and after, but thankfully came out unscathed.
      - leaflets2 4y ago
        Makes me wonder, back at the time, when you went there -- how much did you believe in what the politicians and military commanders said about weapons of mass destruction etc, if I may ask? Sorry for the ones who died
        account-5 4y ago
        No, I don't think many people did. But as a soldier you don't have a choice, you go where you are told.
tomcam 4y ago
earthbee 4y ago
EFPs are similar but distinct from shaped charges. Shaped charges use a conical liner that forms a jet that is only really effective over a limited range, the liner on EFPs is usually flatter and is designed to form a projectile that is effective over much wider ranges.
- magicalhippo 4y ago
  The dad of a childhood buddy was in our version of the rangers and mentioned they had made improvised shape charges (in his words) using a helmet filled with plastic explosives and a metal dinner plate as liner to form a shape charge. When I got older I was thinking maybe he was telling some tall tales, but I guess this could work as an EFP.
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    That would totally depend on the metal. Some would just shatter. Too brittle a metal or too violent a charge and the 'penetrator' just becomes a shotgun of shrapnel flying out in all direction.
- Retric 4y ago
  EFP’s are a type of shaped charge: “An explosively formed penetrator, also known as an explosively formed projectile, a self-forging warhead, or a self-forging fragment, is a special type of shaped charge designed to penetrate armor effectively.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator

root_axis 4y ago

That sounds pretty scary. I hope you made it out ok.

hedgehog 4y ago

Devious. The assassination of Alfred Herrhausen is I think the textbook example of this technique: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Herrhausen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Herrhausen

sofixa 4y ago
Interesting, thanks for sharing. A few things stand out (spoilers of course) - the Chairman of Deutsche Bank had an armoured convoy with two vehicles with bodyguards. It makes sense seeing that someone was trying to kill him, but outside of that context it seems a lot. Most European politicians, including heads of state and government, have less today. Second, he bled to death. I wonder what circumstances led to this, was the car too badly mangled and nobody could come to his aid? It's not something that happens instantaneously, i think, so there's some time to react. But maybe the blood loss couldn't be stopped ( severed legs, is there something that could be done? Would a tourniquet help?). No idea
- spiffistan 4y ago
  Also rather interesting that Vladimir Putin is thought to have been involved as the RAF handler, if those sources are veritable.
  - zeristor 4y ago
    Also I heard on a History podcast, but can’t yet find any supporting evidence, that the Soviet Union funded the anti-nuclear power movement in West Germany leading to a dependence on Russian Gas. Like I said if this is credible there should be some evidence, but I’d conjecture that perhaps Putin could have been part of that too I’d have thought people would be crowing about that if it was the case.
    - sofixa 4y ago
      In a similar vein, albeit with less geopolitics, Big Oil companies funded various environmental groups' anti-nuclear stances and protests, in order to solidify their grip on the energy market.
    - londons_explore 4y ago
      Even now, talking about it would lead to a quicker swing back to nuclear power hurting russia's interests.
      - dividedbyzero 4y ago
        Germany is already well on its way to try out renewables in earnest, so the anti-nuclear camp's arguments seem to have convinced a majority of the voters and environmentalists, socialists, conservatives all pushed this when in power. The arguments backing this wouldn't change, so I don't think such a revelation would have a big impact on German energy policy. Besides, the pro-nuclear camp has always had very deep pockets, so I guess whatever funds the Soviet Union/Russia might have provided would have at best/worst only leveled the playing field somewhat. Disclosing this might end some careers, though.
    - Arnt 4y ago
      Extremely implausible. The anti-nuclear movement wasn't driven by money. Still isn't. The organisations that wanted nuclear power used money, the ones against used people's time. https://www.sueddeutsche.de/image/sz.1.3984639/1408x792 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/image/sz.1.3984639/1408x792 >1% of the population attended that demonstration, and demonstrations that big matter. But they're not a matter of payment. People weren't paid to go there, they didn't even have their travel costs reimbursed: You can't reimburse 100k people and hope to keep that secret. You can't even reimburse the ~5k organisers.
- conradev 4y ago
  You have about three minutes for an arterial bleed. Perhaps less for two arterial bleeds. The proper technique would indeed to be tourniquet the legs, which you can do with anything (like strips of cloth) as long as you can make it tight enough.
- this_steve_j 4y ago
  The explosive device contained approximately 22 pounds of TNT, and detonated 3 feet away from the right rear passenger door.
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    a small point, but wikipedia says "The 7 kg bomb was hidden in a bag" which would be 15 lbs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Herrhausen#Assassination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Herrhausen#Assassinatio...
- saberdancer 4y ago
  It does say his legs were severed. So probably massive bleeding immediately and with the damage to the car, there was no chance to save him.
this_steve_j 4y ago
> When Herrhausen's motorcade approached the attack site, the lookout waited for the lead car to pass by the bike, then radioed to the terrorist in the bushes who quickly activated the beam. Herrhausen's vehicle broke the beam which triggered the electronic detonator in the bomb. The front of Herrhausen's car broke the beam at the precise moment the back right seat, where Herrhausen was sitting, was directly across from the bomb. The force of the explosion was aimed at where Herrhausen was sitting. The bomb was placed on a child's bike to match the height of the back right door of the armored vehicle. To develop this attack, the terrorists had to compute the speed of the car, the length of the car, and the height of the back right door. As his car passed the bike, at 8:34 a.m., the bike exploded and some 22 pounds of TNT propelled schrapnel through the right rear door, forcing a piece of the armored door into Herrhausen, pushing him across the back seat into the left door. The force of the explo- sion, which took place 3 feet away from the right rear door of Herrhausen's vehicle, threw the 2.8 ton armored vehicle across the street, approximately 82 feet. The driver was slightly injured. https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/153346NCJRS.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/153346NCJRS.pdf
- fsckboy 4y ago
  >To develop this attack, the terrorists had to compute the speed of the car... if the explosive went off more or less instantly, the speed of the car would not matter, not that it would be difficult to estimate anyway.
simonebrunozzi 4y ago
Please link to Desktop version of wikipedia articles [0], or articles in general. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Herrhausen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Herrhausen
- hedgehog 4y ago
  Apologies, too late to edit now.

jade-m 4y ago

I think you mean the US invasion of Iraq

jakear 4y ago
Vouched for this. Names are important, it’s disingenuous to suggest US and Iraq played an equal role in initiating the engagement. Do we call it the Russia/Ukraine war or the Russian invasion of Ukraine?
- IMTDb 4y ago
  We call them : The Iraq War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War) and the Russo-Ukrainian War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War) This is a discussion about a special kind of explosive and a first hand story on how it is used in a conflict. Leave politics aside.
  - account-5 4y ago
    > The Iraq War was a protracted armed conflict in Iraq from 2003 to 2011 that began with the *invasion of Iraq by the United States–led coalition*... Whilst I agree that the preceding comments are off topic with their own inflammatory agenda's I do think it's important in generally acknowledging the war was caused by a US led invasion based on lies. Disclaimer: I fought there and lost people there, and after, but thankfully came out unscathed.
    - leaflets2 4y ago
      Makes me wonder, back at the time, when you went there -- how much did you believe in what the politicians and military commanders said about weapons of mass destruction etc, if I may ask? Sorry for the ones who died
      - account-5 4y ago
        No, I don't think many people did. But as a soldier you don't have a choice, you go where you are told.

tomcam 4y ago

earthbee 4y ago

EFPs are similar but distinct from shaped charges. Shaped charges use a conical liner that forms a jet that is only really effective over a limited range, the liner on EFPs is usually flatter and is designed to form a projectile that is effective over much wider ranges.

magicalhippo 4y ago
The dad of a childhood buddy was in our version of the rangers and mentioned they had made improvised shape charges (in his words) using a helmet filled with plastic explosives and a metal dinner plate as liner to form a shape charge. When I got older I was thinking maybe he was telling some tall tales, but I guess this could work as an EFP.
- sandworm101 4y ago
  That would totally depend on the metal. Some would just shatter. Too brittle a metal or too violent a charge and the 'penetrator' just becomes a shotgun of shrapnel flying out in all direction.
Retric 4y ago
EFP’s are a type of shaped charge: “An explosively formed penetrator, also known as an explosively formed projectile, a self-forging warhead, or a self-forging fragment, is a special type of shaped charge designed to penetrate armor effectively.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator