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Did the school actually have any legal ground to force someone to leave a public sidewalk?

by dudul 4y ago

tssva 4y ago
The school can't force someone to, but they can call the police who most likely would side with the school and threaten to charge them with loitering if they didn't move.
- baisq 4y ago
  Loitering is illegal?
  - dekhn 4y ago
    California takes loitering near a school very seriously. Loitering at or near a school is a misdemeanor that is punishable by up to six months in jail and a $1,000 court fine. If the defendant is a person who is required to register as a sex offender under California Penal Code Section 290 PC, the maximum fine amount on a first conviction for loitering at or around a school increases to $2,000. If the defendant is required to register as a sex offender and has a previous conviction under California Penal Code Section 653b PC, he or she must serve a minimum of 10 days in jail. And if the defendant is required to register as a sex offender and has two or more prior convictions for loitering in or around a school, that person must serve a minimum of 90 days in jail custody.
  - spacemanmatt 4y ago
    It's effectively illegal if the police will prevent a person from doing it.
    - baisq 4y ago
      If loitering is not against the law how can a policeman prevent you from doing it?
      - dekhn 4y ago
        Uh.... realistically, in the real world, where people aren't being obtuse, police exceed their legal authority periodically. Police have a wide range of latitude to determine that a situation is an emergency and can do a number of things to prevent the emergency from getting worse. Things have changed significantly now that many police are required to wear recording devices- it's now clear that some police abuse their authority.
        kayodelycaon 4y ago
        It’s even worse than that. This stuff can show up in background checks. Just being arrested, regardless of guilt, shows up and possibly prevent you from getting a job.
      - spacemanmatt 4y ago
        Legally, they shan't.
        giardini 4y ago
        >spacemanmatt says >"Legally, they shan't."< They also shan't use the word "shan't". The last time I heard "shan't" spoken was by a leprechaun some twenty-odd St. Patrick's Days ago.
        selimthegrim 4y ago
        Did the sentence include Begorrah?
        spacemanmatt 4y ago
        It's the standard and formulaic contraction for shall not, as well as part of the title of one of my favorite albums by contemporary chap-hop artist, Mr. B. and it's worth a listen at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCAVTtDxvC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCAVTtDxvC8
      - Miner49er 4y ago
  - tssva 4y ago
    In New York, where this incident took place, loitering is illegal in certain circumstances including near a school. Section 240.35 of the NY penal code. "5. Loiters or remains in or about school grounds, a college or university building or grounds or a children's overnight camp as defined in section one thousand three hundred ninety-two of the public health law or a summer day camp as defined in section one thousand three hundred ninety-two of the public health law, or loiters, remains in or enters a school bus as defined in section one hundred forty-two of the vehicle and traffic law, not having any reason or relationship involving custody of or responsibility for a pupil or student, or any other specific, legitimate reason for being there, and not having written permission from anyone authorized to grant the same or loiters or remains in or about such children's overnight camp or summer day camp in violation of conspicuously posted rules or regulations governing entry and use thereof; or"
  - taylodl 4y ago
    Yes. In many municipalities loitering is illegal - and has been for several decades. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. Too be honest I'm not sure why you find that so surprising seeing as how it wasn't all that long ago your skin color affected what parts of town you could be present in (to some extent this still persists, but you're not likely to be jailed for it - unless the police engagement invokes a negative reaction on your part.)
dekhn 4y ago
It kind of depends on what your goal is here. The school doesn't have that, but in california "loitering near a school" is illegal and you can go to jail. Even so, how you act in the situation determines the outcome. You have several options, including arguing with the school staff (guaranteed police visit), arguing with the police (likely will make the police less likely to sympathize even if you're not doing something illegal), behaving suspiciously (IE, not making eye contact, not following direct orders from cops, slumping, wearing clothes that cover your face, being a member of a minority that cops believe are prone to being criminal) will get you beaten up, arrested, sent to jail, etc. How you act in public situations makes all the difference. For example, you could set up in front of the school with a protest sign that says ("Fund police and schools"), you're not going to get the police called on you.
- ddlatham 4y ago
  I found that surprising. According to the first Google result[1], it is true that loitering near a school is illegal, BUT loitering doesn't mean just being there. It means being there with an unlawful purpose; they give an example of someone waiting to abduct a child. Watching kids play isn't otherwise a crime, so wouldn't qualify. I definitely sympathize with the author. As a male, I would expect an even stronger reaction to hanging around watching kids with no clear intent. As others have pointed out, even if you're not committing a crime you can be in for an unpleasant response. It's sad that there are creeps out there. It's sad that as a result, certain innocent behaviors make others nervous (rationally or irrationally). It also gives me a small taste of what it's like to be judged by my category/appearance. [1]https://www.losangelescriminallawyer.pro/california-penal-code-section-653b-pc-loitering-at-a-school.html https://www.losangelescriminallawyer.pro/california-penal-co...
  - dekhn 4y ago
    Do you understand that the interpretation of unlawful purpose is left to the enforcement agency at the moment of possible infraction? Note that many municipalities in the US openly publish the names of people who are arrested, and what for, but then don't publish that people got off because they weren't guilty.

Did the school actually have any legal ground to force someone to leave a public sidewalk?

by dudul 4y ago

Did the school actually have any legal ground to force someone to leave a public sidewalk?

The school can't force someone to, but they can call the police who most likely would side with the school and threaten to charge them with loitering if they didn't move.

baisq 4y ago
Loitering is illegal?
- dekhn 4y ago
  California takes loitering near a school very seriously. Loitering at or near a school is a misdemeanor that is punishable by up to six months in jail and a $1,000 court fine. If the defendant is a person who is required to register as a sex offender under California Penal Code Section 290 PC, the maximum fine amount on a first conviction for loitering at or around a school increases to $2,000. If the defendant is required to register as a sex offender and has a previous conviction under California Penal Code Section 653b PC, he or she must serve a minimum of 10 days in jail. And if the defendant is required to register as a sex offender and has two or more prior convictions for loitering in or around a school, that person must serve a minimum of 90 days in jail custody.
- spacemanmatt 4y ago
  It's effectively illegal if the police will prevent a person from doing it.
  - baisq 4y ago
    If loitering is not against the law how can a policeman prevent you from doing it?
    - dekhn 4y ago
      Uh.... realistically, in the real world, where people aren't being obtuse, police exceed their legal authority periodically. Police have a wide range of latitude to determine that a situation is an emergency and can do a number of things to prevent the emergency from getting worse. Things have changed significantly now that many police are required to wear recording devices- it's now clear that some police abuse their authority.
      - kayodelycaon 4y ago
        It’s even worse than that. This stuff can show up in background checks. Just being arrested, regardless of guilt, shows up and possibly prevent you from getting a job.
    - spacemanmatt 4y ago
      Legally, they shan't.
      - giardini 4y ago
        >spacemanmatt says >"Legally, they shan't."< They also shan't use the word "shan't". The last time I heard "shan't" spoken was by a leprechaun some twenty-odd St. Patrick's Days ago.
        selimthegrim 4y ago
        Did the sentence include Begorrah?
        spacemanmatt 4y ago
        It's the standard and formulaic contraction for shall not, as well as part of the title of one of my favorite albums by contemporary chap-hop artist, Mr. B. and it's worth a listen at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCAVTtDxvC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCAVTtDxvC8
    - Miner49er 4y ago
- tssva 4y ago
  In New York, where this incident took place, loitering is illegal in certain circumstances including near a school. Section 240.35 of the NY penal code. "5. Loiters or remains in or about school grounds, a college or university building or grounds or a children's overnight camp as defined in section one thousand three hundred ninety-two of the public health law or a summer day camp as defined in section one thousand three hundred ninety-two of the public health law, or loiters, remains in or enters a school bus as defined in section one hundred forty-two of the vehicle and traffic law, not having any reason or relationship involving custody of or responsibility for a pupil or student, or any other specific, legitimate reason for being there, and not having written permission from anyone authorized to grant the same or loiters or remains in or about such children's overnight camp or summer day camp in violation of conspicuously posted rules or regulations governing entry and use thereof; or"
- taylodl 4y ago
  Yes. In many municipalities loitering is illegal - and has been for several decades. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. Too be honest I'm not sure why you find that so surprising seeing as how it wasn't all that long ago your skin color affected what parts of town you could be present in (to some extent this still persists, but you're not likely to be jailed for it - unless the police engagement invokes a negative reaction on your part.)

dekhn 4y ago

It kind of depends on what your goal is here. The school doesn't have that, but in california "loitering near a school" is illegal and you can go to jail. Even so, how you act in the situation determines the outcome. You have several options, including arguing with the school staff (guaranteed police visit), arguing with the police (likely will make the police less likely to sympathize even if you're not doing something illegal), behaving suspiciously (IE, not making eye contact, not following direct orders from cops, slumping, wearing clothes that cover your face, being a member of a minority that cops believe are prone to being criminal) will get you beaten up, arrested, sent to jail, etc. How you act in public situations makes all the difference. For example, you could set up in front of the school with a protest sign that says ("Fund police and schools"), you're not going to get the police called on you.

ddlatham 4y ago
I found that surprising. According to the first Google result[1], it is true that loitering near a school is illegal, BUT loitering doesn't mean just being there. It means being there with an unlawful purpose; they give an example of someone waiting to abduct a child. Watching kids play isn't otherwise a crime, so wouldn't qualify. I definitely sympathize with the author. As a male, I would expect an even stronger reaction to hanging around watching kids with no clear intent. As others have pointed out, even if you're not committing a crime you can be in for an unpleasant response. It's sad that there are creeps out there. It's sad that as a result, certain innocent behaviors make others nervous (rationally or irrationally). It also gives me a small taste of what it's like to be judged by my category/appearance. [1]https://www.losangelescriminallawyer.pro/california-penal-code-section-653b-pc-loitering-at-a-school.html https://www.losangelescriminallawyer.pro/california-penal-co...
- dekhn 4y ago
  Do you understand that the interpretation of unlawful purpose is left to the enforcement agency at the moment of possible infraction? Note that many municipalities in the US openly publish the names of people who are arrested, and what for, but then don't publish that people got off because they weren't guilty.