4 ms·

> It is much easier for lobbyists with deep pockets to influence policies on the continent. I don't know what you're comparing it with (i.e. easier than what?)

by Vinnl 4y ago

> It is much easier for lobbyists with deep pockets to influence policies on the continent. I don't know what you're comparing it with (i.e. easier than what?), but in my mind one advantage of the "bureaucracy" of the EU is that you have to convince way more people to get them to execute on your wishes. You can influence a Commissioner (the Commission is indirectly elected, i.e. appointed by the member governments, which are often appointed by the majority parties in a government, which are elected), but then it also needs to be approved by Parliament (directly elected) and the Council (the governments, usually appointed by the elected majority parties). And then I assume there's also a whole bunch of roadblocks that civil servants can throw up if a plan is really inconvenient.

dijit 4y ago
Bingo, the EU is optimised to _not_ do things against the will of member states, both at the EU government and national government level. Many things are proposed, very few make it through, meaning the number of people you have to influence has to be extremely tactical or total. You can see this with the proposal to stop moving the EU parliament and commission to Strasbourg every year (just to move it back again), France says no, therefore it can't happen. Same is true with sanctions against .pl for freedom of the press violations, Hungary says no and that's all it takes for nothing to happen.
- blibble 4y ago
  this is not entirely accurate, it depends on the policy area: the parliament shuffling bullshit is part of the treaties, so France has a veto there whereas most policy is done via QMV, so the veto isn't a problem, especially if you can wait for a compliant set of governments once it's implemented: getting another majority to initiate the legislation to remove it is even harder by the very nature of the mechanism
  - dijit 4y ago
    Yes, but getting a qualified Majority is also very difficult 55% of countries by population and 65% of countries of total need to vote yes: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/voting-calculator/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/...
    - blibble 4y ago
      yes, but you only need it once and then your legislation is essentially eternally protected because you'd need the same QM to remove it, which will practically never happen the system empowers the legislators of the past over the legislators of today, which is fundamentally undemocratic
      - sieabahlpark 4y ago
        The EU isn't democratic in the first place. Partly is the reason why it needs to go away.
        dijit 4y ago
        You're obviously here for a reasonable discussion. The only people who benefit from the EU dissolving are nationalists and enemies of the block of countries that make up the EU (Russia, China and to some extent the Allied US whom would prefer us not to be united). Which are you?
        Fidelix 4y ago
        I'm not a nationalist, I'm an immigrant in the UK. I'm simply not fond of unelected authoritarians, neither am I fond of fascists governing my community from far away. Which are you?
        dijit 4y ago
        > I'm simply not fond of unelected authoritarians You should be very concerned about our House of Lords, our Monarchy and the cronyism and corruption that is currently plaguing our elected officials, and lovely "unelected" advisors to the prime minister such as Dominic Cummings, who's policies used to be followed almost as religious dogma. You can worry about the "big bad EU" when you understand the EU more. I'm aware that it is a bold and inflamatory claim to say you don't understand it enough; but I feel confident making such a statement as anybody who has spent more than 20 minutes researching how the EU works would know that it's folly to say that they're "unelected authoritarians". Lets start with the unelected bit: EU Commission is elected by Parliment. (IE; indirectly elected) EU Parliament is directly elected by you, the individual, they are your MEPs, and they're elected in one of the most democratic ways we know of. EU Council is heads of state (IE; Elected) Council of the European Union is non-heads of governments of European countries. (IE; Elected). > neither am I fond of fascists Might want to look up what that word means, the very idea of a united EU is the opposite of fascism. Fascism is characterised by nationalism. > governing my community from far away. The distance between Luxembourg and London is less than the distance between London and Glasgow.. (489km vs 556km as the crow flies) I'm British, I was a little bit nationalistic before I left the UK and realised that I was foolish. I'm not accusing you of being a fool but you're certainly misinformed. I find it's better to not throw stones if you live in a glass house.

by Vinnl 4y ago

dijit 4y ago

Bingo, the EU is optimised to _not_ do things against the will of member states, both at the EU government and national government level. Many things are proposed, very few make it through, meaning the number of people you have to influence has to be extremely tactical or total. You can see this with the proposal to stop moving the EU parliament and commission to Strasbourg every year (just to move it back again), France says no, therefore it can't happen. Same is true with sanctions against .pl for freedom of the press violations, Hungary says no and that's all it takes for nothing to happen.

blibble 4y ago
this is not entirely accurate, it depends on the policy area: the parliament shuffling bullshit is part of the treaties, so France has a veto there whereas most policy is done via QMV, so the veto isn't a problem, especially if you can wait for a compliant set of governments once it's implemented: getting another majority to initiate the legislation to remove it is even harder by the very nature of the mechanism
- dijit 4y ago
  Yes, but getting a qualified Majority is also very difficult 55% of countries by population and 65% of countries of total need to vote yes: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/voting-calculator/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/...
  - blibble 4y ago
    yes, but you only need it once and then your legislation is essentially eternally protected because you'd need the same QM to remove it, which will practically never happen the system empowers the legislators of the past over the legislators of today, which is fundamentally undemocratic
    - sieabahlpark 4y ago
      The EU isn't democratic in the first place. Partly is the reason why it needs to go away.
      - dijit 4y ago
        You're obviously here for a reasonable discussion. The only people who benefit from the EU dissolving are nationalists and enemies of the block of countries that make up the EU (Russia, China and to some extent the Allied US whom would prefer us not to be united). Which are you?
        Fidelix 4y ago
        I'm not a nationalist, I'm an immigrant in the UK. I'm simply not fond of unelected authoritarians, neither am I fond of fascists governing my community from far away. Which are you?
        dijit 4y ago
        > I'm simply not fond of unelected authoritarians You should be very concerned about our House of Lords, our Monarchy and the cronyism and corruption that is currently plaguing our elected officials, and lovely "unelected" advisors to the prime minister such as Dominic Cummings, who's policies used to be followed almost as religious dogma. You can worry about the "big bad EU" when you understand the EU more. I'm aware that it is a bold and inflamatory claim to say you don't understand it enough; but I feel confident making such a statement as anybody who has spent more than 20 minutes researching how the EU works would know that it's folly to say that they're "unelected authoritarians". Lets start with the unelected bit: EU Commission is elected by Parliment. (IE; indirectly elected) EU Parliament is directly elected by you, the individual, they are your MEPs, and they're elected in one of the most democratic ways we know of. EU Council is heads of state (IE; Elected) Council of the European Union is non-heads of governments of European countries. (IE; Elected). > neither am I fond of fascists Might want to look up what that word means, the very idea of a united EU is the opposite of fascism. Fascism is characterised by nationalism. > governing my community from far away. The distance between Luxembourg and London is less than the distance between London and Glasgow.. (489km vs 556km as the crow flies) I'm British, I was a little bit nationalistic before I left the UK and realised that I was foolish. I'm not accusing you of being a fool but you're certainly misinformed. I find it's better to not throw stones if you live in a glass house.