3 ms·

Isn't this an insanely stupid idea? Doesn't it open the door to a new type of ransomware - pay up, or we'll flood your devices with CSAM and submit a tip about

by Mizza 4y ago

Isn't this an insanely stupid idea? Doesn't it open the door to a new type of ransomware - pay up, or we'll flood your devices with CSAM and submit a tip about it?

lamontcg 4y ago
I keep posting this objection on every single one of these articles. It is weird how supposedly techno-savvy people can't spot how easy this would be. But I'd think it would look more like an alternative to murder-for-hire when ruining someone else's life and throwing them in jail would be sufficient. Get someone else to pay reasonably big money to actually do it and not just threaten it. This may have happened already and some middle aged dude caught with CSAM is crying about how he's been framed--only he really has been framed. But nobody believes him, because nobody believes a sex pervert. It seems like a great way to me to put out a 'hit' on someone because it can be done from across the world without leaving any physical traces, with the actions taken across national borders, and much less likelihood of the cops being able to do anything about it, even if they do detect it and the person winds up going free. Agencies like the CIA may also be able to exploit this against foreign politicians and public figures they don't like.
- ajb 4y ago
  Well yes, that's what I though 20 years ago. But I've never seen a report of actual framing of someone via CSAM. gung-ho police mistaking innocent nude kid pics, yes. Criminalisation of sexting by teenagers, yes. But framing? Haven't seen it reported. There are two reasons I guess. One is that pedophilia is the epitome of evil in our society and even career criminals would find handling CSAM off putting and risky. The second is that if you can hack someone, there's easier ways of taking their money. Stealing their credit cards being the obvious one. Money motivated criminals always go by the easiest route. That doesn't rule it out. If we get an uptick in cyberwarfare, I wouldn't be surprised to see this tried, because 'authority says its okay to do this' is an effective
  - insta_anon 4y ago
    > But I've never seen a report of actual framing of someone via CSAM Here you go: https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/hamburg-bank-scandal-ex-government-spokesman-spread-child-porn-investigation-rumors-a-720264.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/hamburg-bank-s...
  - kingcharles 4y ago
    Not framing, but similar: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31356661 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31356661
  - frickinLasers 4y ago
    Here we go, two days ago: https://kfor.com/news/local/wife-accomplice-screenshot-857-child-porn-photos-to-frame-husband-before-upcoming-custody-battle/ https://kfor.com/news/local/wife-accomplice-screenshot-857-c...
  - lamontcg 4y ago
    Well some other people already posted that it has actually happened. > There are two reasons I guess. One is that pedophilia is the epitome of evil in our society and even career criminals would find handling CSAM off putting and risky. Every time I see this argument I find it hopelessly naive. If I was sitting on a few million in cocaine or heroin I'd be sweating bullets, but other people deal in more than that all the time. There are people out there willing to do murder for hire, which seems like total insanity to me (huge legal risks and you have to get up close and messy and be actually willing to kill someone). Yet sociopaths out there look at their skill set and decide the fact that they're completely okay with killing people is a profitable skill they can market. Sitting on a pile of CSAM and hacking into phones to frame other people seems relatively tame by comparison, and certainly prone to attracting people who are overly-smart technically and have the weakness that they think they're so smart they'll never get caught. Far from seeming implausible, it seems highly plausible.
kingcharles 4y ago
This isn't a theoretical case. I had this happen with regularity, and I'm sure many others have too. I ran an online business and one of my competitors hired someone to constantly email PayPal and tell them I was selling CSAM. PayPal has literally no option other than to instantly lock your account against all transactions. Luckily I was putting so much money through PayPal I had my own account manager, but they still have a script they have to work through where they have to go through every part of your web site to make sure the report is false before they can open your account back up, which takes 3-7 days on average.
gigel82 4y ago
Hey, that's an idea... we know who the sponsors for this are in the European Commission; maybe Anon or someone could take a stab at uploading something special to their devices.
pbhjpbhj 4y ago
The blackmailers would have to own the channel they transmit on, though, to hide their communication to you, and own the metadata on the network. It's not like file-encryption ransoms, they not only have to remain anonymous but also to hide all traces of network communications (which are already completely monitored on a message-metadata level). And the perps aren't just screwing around for money but are trading in practices that apparently get you murdered in prison.

by Mizza 4y ago

Isn't this an insanely stupid idea? Doesn't it open the door to a new type of ransomware - pay up, or we'll flood your devices with CSAM and submit a tip about it?

lamontcg 4y ago

I keep posting this objection on every single one of these articles. It is weird how supposedly techno-savvy people can't spot how easy this would be. But I'd think it would look more like an alternative to murder-for-hire when ruining someone else's life and throwing them in jail would be sufficient. Get someone else to pay reasonably big money to actually do it and not just threaten it. This may have happened already and some middle aged dude caught with CSAM is crying about how he's been framed--only he really has been framed. But nobody believes him, because nobody believes a sex pervert. It seems like a great way to me to put out a 'hit' on someone because it can be done from across the world without leaving any physical traces, with the actions taken across national borders, and much less likelihood of the cops being able to do anything about it, even if they do detect it and the person winds up going free. Agencies like the CIA may also be able to exploit this against foreign politicians and public figures they don't like.

ajb 4y ago
Well yes, that's what I though 20 years ago. But I've never seen a report of actual framing of someone via CSAM. gung-ho police mistaking innocent nude kid pics, yes. Criminalisation of sexting by teenagers, yes. But framing? Haven't seen it reported. There are two reasons I guess. One is that pedophilia is the epitome of evil in our society and even career criminals would find handling CSAM off putting and risky. The second is that if you can hack someone, there's easier ways of taking their money. Stealing their credit cards being the obvious one. Money motivated criminals always go by the easiest route. That doesn't rule it out. If we get an uptick in cyberwarfare, I wouldn't be surprised to see this tried, because 'authority says its okay to do this' is an effective
- insta_anon 4y ago
  > But I've never seen a report of actual framing of someone via CSAM Here you go: https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/hamburg-bank-scandal-ex-government-spokesman-spread-child-porn-investigation-rumors-a-720264.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/hamburg-bank-s...
- kingcharles 4y ago
  Not framing, but similar: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31356661 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31356661
- frickinLasers 4y ago
  Here we go, two days ago: https://kfor.com/news/local/wife-accomplice-screenshot-857-child-porn-photos-to-frame-husband-before-upcoming-custody-battle/ https://kfor.com/news/local/wife-accomplice-screenshot-857-c...
- lamontcg 4y ago
  Well some other people already posted that it has actually happened. > There are two reasons I guess. One is that pedophilia is the epitome of evil in our society and even career criminals would find handling CSAM off putting and risky. Every time I see this argument I find it hopelessly naive. If I was sitting on a few million in cocaine or heroin I'd be sweating bullets, but other people deal in more than that all the time. There are people out there willing to do murder for hire, which seems like total insanity to me (huge legal risks and you have to get up close and messy and be actually willing to kill someone). Yet sociopaths out there look at their skill set and decide the fact that they're completely okay with killing people is a profitable skill they can market. Sitting on a pile of CSAM and hacking into phones to frame other people seems relatively tame by comparison, and certainly prone to attracting people who are overly-smart technically and have the weakness that they think they're so smart they'll never get caught. Far from seeming implausible, it seems highly plausible.

kingcharles 4y ago

This isn't a theoretical case. I had this happen with regularity, and I'm sure many others have too. I ran an online business and one of my competitors hired someone to constantly email PayPal and tell them I was selling CSAM. PayPal has literally no option other than to instantly lock your account against all transactions. Luckily I was putting so much money through PayPal I had my own account manager, but they still have a script they have to work through where they have to go through every part of your web site to make sure the report is false before they can open your account back up, which takes 3-7 days on average.

gigel82 4y ago

Hey, that's an idea... we know who the sponsors for this are in the European Commission; maybe Anon or someone could take a stab at uploading something special to their devices.

pbhjpbhj 4y ago

The blackmailers would have to own the channel they transmit on, though, to hide their communication to you, and own the metadata on the network. It's not like file-encryption ransoms, they not only have to remain anonymous but also to hide all traces of network communications (which are already completely monitored on a message-metadata level). And the perps aren't just screwing around for money but are trading in practices that apparently get you murdered in prison.