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Warning, long EU critical rant: This is again a fundamental flaw of the EU. It is much easier for lobbyists with deep pockets to influence policies on the cont

Warning, long EU critical rant: This is again a fundamental flaw of the EU. It is much easier for lobbyists with deep pockets to influence policies on the continent. A few years ago EU advantages wwere sold as keeping the peace and making travel easier. Well, I think the first one isn't true and the second is a tiny advantage in comparison to have vastly less influence. I don't have a solution and theoretically we have subsidiarity here but it empirically doesn't work, especially concerning civil liberties. Those are reduced while economic interests are completely unchallenged, even supported by the political structure. Ever wondered why retail tries to use as few suppliers as possible? For a number of reasons but one is certainly to make that supplier dependent and to influence decisions in production. Now take this idea and transfer it to the EU. I don't think a lot of friends of the EU are capable to understand these dynamics and therefore are not really good political allies because refusing to talk about the problems doesn't make the problem go away. There is just hot air as a response if you even get one. The weight the EU provides to defend against the influence of other states is also useless if we emulate corrupt autocracies anyway. So what is the excuse this time? We have a Hollywood actor influencing policies trying to sell his shitty AI solution. Sure, there is domestic support too, especially with personnel like UvdL who certainly nobody elected. Maybe people that cannot understand her might like her because she looks a bit sympathetic. Great union... We simply cannot have a political institution on the highest level where nations offload their most incompetent politicians. Public policy is too important for that. As a citizen I cannot keep up with the issues in Spain or Sweden if I live in central Europe. How can I know what to vote for here? I could focus on my interest as a citizen, but right now it feels like a headless race forward with possibly very bad decisions that can do a lot of damage. Most people in the EU not from Germany don't know UvdL and they should know that she has the capability to severely damage the net and to me this is a case of cronyism right in front of our eyes without much recourse.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>Most people in the EU not from Germany don't know UvdL Oh, we do, and we hate her and unfortunately Germany too, because they push their incompetent and corrupt politicians to the EU, where they're using the country's immense economic leverage to push unpopular policies across EU level.
- jotm 5y ago
  On that note, other EU countries should pull their heads out of their asses and start creating better environments for business and especially small business/startups. You know what happens in my country when you get a big sum of money from crowdfunding or the tax authority thinks you owe them money? They block your bank accounts. Yeah, they actually do that, and then tell you to come and resolve the problem. Which can take weeks to months. You know what happens in a "normal" country like the UK, Germany, Netherlands or any other with a healthy number of small/medium business? They notify you and tell you to come and resolve the issue asap. If you fail to do that, they can block and check your bank accounts. In the meantime, you can continue doing business. The punishment for tax evasion/etc is about the same all over. So why the extra totalitarianism? Anyone with half a brain would never want to deal with that bs. And that's just one example, there's lots more. You know where big companies come from? Small ones grow into them. Good luck growing much of anything with this kind of approach. Sit there and be envious of Germany and everyone else.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    What does 'your country ' whichever that is, and their abusive way of way of handling business have to do with Germany's way of doing business and their corrupt politicians? The US is number one in the world for top companies, does that automatically make them the best example for policies on everything and the best politicians? I just don't understand where you were going with this off topic rant.
AlbertoGP 5y ago
> Most people in the EU not from Germany don't know UvdL and they should know that she has the capability to severely damage the net I gave a bit of context on UvdL (Ursula von der Leyen) in a comment a few hours ago in the thread “European Commission prefers breaking privacy to protecting kids”: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31344817 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31344817
Vinnl 5y ago
> It is much easier for lobbyists with deep pockets to influence policies on the continent. I don't know what you're comparing it with (i.e. easier than what?), but in my mind one advantage of the "bureaucracy" of the EU is that you have to convince way more people to get them to execute on your wishes. You can influence a Commissioner (the Commission is indirectly elected, i.e. appointed by the member governments, which are often appointed by the majority parties in a government, which are elected), but then it also needs to be approved by Parliament (directly elected) and the Council (the governments, usually appointed by the elected majority parties). And then I assume there's also a whole bunch of roadblocks that civil servants can throw up if a plan is really inconvenient.
- dijit 5y ago
  Bingo, the EU is optimised to _not_ do things against the will of member states, both at the EU government and national government level. Many things are proposed, very few make it through, meaning the number of people you have to influence has to be extremely tactical or total. You can see this with the proposal to stop moving the EU parliament and commission to Strasbourg every year (just to move it back again), France says no, therefore it can't happen. Same is true with sanctions against .pl for freedom of the press violations, Hungary says no and that's all it takes for nothing to happen.
  - blibble 5y ago
    this is not entirely accurate, it depends on the policy area: the parliament shuffling bullshit is part of the treaties, so France has a veto there whereas most policy is done via QMV, so the veto isn't a problem, especially if you can wait for a compliant set of governments once it's implemented: getting another majority to initiate the legislation to remove it is even harder by the very nature of the mechanism
    - dijit 5y ago
      Yes, but getting a qualified Majority is also very difficult 55% of countries by population and 65% of countries of total need to vote yes: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/voting-calculator/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/...
nivenkos 5y ago
We need more democracy - pan-EU elections for the President, pan-EU parties for the Parliament, etc.
- sprash 5y ago
  > pan-EU This would mean less democracy. As much as possible should be decided decentralized at a local level. I know where my mayor lives. He can't act against the interest of his own people for too long without some serious consequences. A pan-EU organization can.
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    > He can't act against the interest of his own people for too long without some serious consequences. If there is one thing where incompetent buffoons can act for far too long with impunity, it is local politics. Local politics usually don't interest anyone except pensioners with too much free time on their hands, and even if people care about local politics that doesn't mean they take care about democracy. The result are people like the disgraced Sheriff Arpaio.
    - sprash 5y ago
      The reason for the lack of interest is that local politicians don't have enough power. If all the local mayor decides about is whether the town hall is going to be blue or green, people don't care. If he can decide if people are allowed to visit local businesses with or without a vaccination verification people did care... a lot.
- bjelkeman-again 5y ago
  I used to think that. Who would get elected for EU president? I believe we have such diversity that the risk is that only the right wing hardliners could agree on a common candidate and we’d risk getting something like Orban or Berlusconi as EU president. I think you can see the trend in the US. So no thanks. I find the complexity of EU actually to be a feature, not a bug. There are drawbacks, but I’ll take them over the alternative you paint.
sprash 5y ago
> incompetent They are not incompetent. Their goal is to install a totalitarian surveillance state. They become exceedingly efficient at it. If you assume your politicians are doing this because they are stupid or because you think they can not see the bigger picture you already lost. At centers of concentrated power everything happens for a purpose.
- Abekkus 5y ago
  Yep, hanlon's razor does not apply to centers of power, where anyone present had to fight cunningly just to get there.
  - Vinnl 5y ago
    Given that these are positions that have to be filled by someone, it's also possible that they're filled by people who happened to have had the winds blowing in their direction, and that if events had been different, other people (more or less cunning) would have been there.
    - pessimizer 5y ago
      This relies on the assumption that there are powerful offices that no one wants to have, and that if they aren't filled a lottery would be run and someone picked up randomly from the street to fill those offices.
      - Vinnl 4y ago
        Why would it need no one wanting to have the positions? I just said that of the ones that do want it, the one that happens to succeed needn't necessarily succeed because of their cunning scheming - they may just have been lucky.
hlpart 5y ago
Yes! EU citizens, arm yourself with information about UvdL and cronyism. Start with the Mc Kinsey affair: https://www.dw.com/en/german-opposition-to-probe-defense-minister-over-spending-scandal/a-46704514 https://www.dw.com/en/german-opposition-to-probe-defense-min... It says something if the usually cautious dw.com uses the term "Nepotism and spending suspicions".
raverbashing 5y ago
> It is much easier for lobbyists with deep pockets to influence policies on the continent That's not how things go, in fact that's very opposite of how things go "I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'" So, no, you're wrong about how easy it is. And where the fault lies.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago

>Most people in the EU not from Germany don't know UvdL Oh, we do, and we hate her and unfortunately Germany too, because they push their incompetent and corrupt politicians to the EU, where they're using the country's immense economic leverage to push unpopular policies across EU level.

jotm 5y ago
On that note, other EU countries should pull their heads out of their asses and start creating better environments for business and especially small business/startups. You know what happens in my country when you get a big sum of money from crowdfunding or the tax authority thinks you owe them money? They block your bank accounts. Yeah, they actually do that, and then tell you to come and resolve the problem. Which can take weeks to months. You know what happens in a "normal" country like the UK, Germany, Netherlands or any other with a healthy number of small/medium business? They notify you and tell you to come and resolve the issue asap. If you fail to do that, they can block and check your bank accounts. In the meantime, you can continue doing business. The punishment for tax evasion/etc is about the same all over. So why the extra totalitarianism? Anyone with half a brain would never want to deal with that bs. And that's just one example, there's lots more. You know where big companies come from? Small ones grow into them. Good luck growing much of anything with this kind of approach. Sit there and be envious of Germany and everyone else.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  What does 'your country ' whichever that is, and their abusive way of way of handling business have to do with Germany's way of doing business and their corrupt politicians? The US is number one in the world for top companies, does that automatically make them the best example for policies on everything and the best politicians? I just don't understand where you were going with this off topic rant.

AlbertoGP 5y ago

> Most people in the EU not from Germany don't know UvdL and they should know that she has the capability to severely damage the net I gave a bit of context on UvdL (Ursula von der Leyen) in a comment a few hours ago in the thread “European Commission prefers breaking privacy to protecting kids”: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31344817 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31344817

Vinnl 5y ago

> It is much easier for lobbyists with deep pockets to influence policies on the continent. I don't know what you're comparing it with (i.e. easier than what?), but in my mind one advantage of the "bureaucracy" of the EU is that you have to convince way more people to get them to execute on your wishes. You can influence a Commissioner (the Commission is indirectly elected, i.e. appointed by the member governments, which are often appointed by the majority parties in a government, which are elected), but then it also needs to be approved by Parliament (directly elected) and the Council (the governments, usually appointed by the elected majority parties). And then I assume there's also a whole bunch of roadblocks that civil servants can throw up if a plan is really inconvenient.

dijit 5y ago
Bingo, the EU is optimised to _not_ do things against the will of member states, both at the EU government and national government level. Many things are proposed, very few make it through, meaning the number of people you have to influence has to be extremely tactical or total. You can see this with the proposal to stop moving the EU parliament and commission to Strasbourg every year (just to move it back again), France says no, therefore it can't happen. Same is true with sanctions against .pl for freedom of the press violations, Hungary says no and that's all it takes for nothing to happen.
- blibble 5y ago
  this is not entirely accurate, it depends on the policy area: the parliament shuffling bullshit is part of the treaties, so France has a veto there whereas most policy is done via QMV, so the veto isn't a problem, especially if you can wait for a compliant set of governments once it's implemented: getting another majority to initiate the legislation to remove it is even harder by the very nature of the mechanism
  - dijit 5y ago
    Yes, but getting a qualified Majority is also very difficult 55% of countries by population and 65% of countries of total need to vote yes: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/voting-calculator/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/...

nivenkos 5y ago

We need more democracy - pan-EU elections for the President, pan-EU parties for the Parliament, etc.

sprash 5y ago
> pan-EU This would mean less democracy. As much as possible should be decided decentralized at a local level. I know where my mayor lives. He can't act against the interest of his own people for too long without some serious consequences. A pan-EU organization can.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > He can't act against the interest of his own people for too long without some serious consequences. If there is one thing where incompetent buffoons can act for far too long with impunity, it is local politics. Local politics usually don't interest anyone except pensioners with too much free time on their hands, and even if people care about local politics that doesn't mean they take care about democracy. The result are people like the disgraced Sheriff Arpaio.
  - sprash 5y ago
    The reason for the lack of interest is that local politicians don't have enough power. If all the local mayor decides about is whether the town hall is going to be blue or green, people don't care. If he can decide if people are allowed to visit local businesses with or without a vaccination verification people did care... a lot.
bjelkeman-again 5y ago
I used to think that. Who would get elected for EU president? I believe we have such diversity that the risk is that only the right wing hardliners could agree on a common candidate and we’d risk getting something like Orban or Berlusconi as EU president. I think you can see the trend in the US. So no thanks. I find the complexity of EU actually to be a feature, not a bug. There are drawbacks, but I’ll take them over the alternative you paint.

sprash 5y ago

> incompetent They are not incompetent. Their goal is to install a totalitarian surveillance state. They become exceedingly efficient at it. If you assume your politicians are doing this because they are stupid or because you think they can not see the bigger picture you already lost. At centers of concentrated power everything happens for a purpose.

Abekkus 5y ago
Yep, hanlon's razor does not apply to centers of power, where anyone present had to fight cunningly just to get there.
- Vinnl 5y ago
  Given that these are positions that have to be filled by someone, it's also possible that they're filled by people who happened to have had the winds blowing in their direction, and that if events had been different, other people (more or less cunning) would have been there.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    This relies on the assumption that there are powerful offices that no one wants to have, and that if they aren't filled a lottery would be run and someone picked up randomly from the street to fill those offices.
    - Vinnl 4y ago
      Why would it need no one wanting to have the positions? I just said that of the ones that do want it, the one that happens to succeed needn't necessarily succeed because of their cunning scheming - they may just have been lucky.

hlpart 5y ago

Yes! EU citizens, arm yourself with information about UvdL and cronyism. Start with the Mc Kinsey affair: https://www.dw.com/en/german-opposition-to-probe-defense-minister-over-spending-scandal/a-46704514 https://www.dw.com/en/german-opposition-to-probe-defense-min... It says something if the usually cautious dw.com uses the term "Nepotism and spending suspicions".

raverbashing 5y ago

> It is much easier for lobbyists with deep pockets to influence policies on the continent That's not how things go, in fact that's very opposite of how things go "I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'" So, no, you're wrong about how easy it is. And where the fault lies.