6 ms·

Be sorry for the Ukrainians. They suffer. The rest of the Eurozone will deal with the stuff. We always have. It's not the first crisis.

by oaiey 4y ago

goodguyamerikan 4y ago
- gchokov 4y ago
kkfx 4y ago
[flagged]
- nixarn 4y ago
  Because of NATO and Nazis? Really? You have 8 million fleeing the country because of Russia's invasion, cities turned into ruins, civilians murdered, raped and tortured. If Russia was such a good guy in this scenario they would allow for freedom of press and speech. And they'd provide evidence everyone could back up. No country is perfect, also the document you shared was post Russia's first aggressions to annex Crimea, and you blame Ukraine? I don't doubt Ukrainians have done war crimes as well, it happens when you're at war. But it wouldn't have happened if Russia just let Ukraine alone to develop, it was doing pretty good compared to Russia before all of this.
  - polotics 4y ago
    The joke that is Lavrov accusing the UK of having fabricated evidence of atrocities in Bucha, then blocking any UN resolution that would investigate said atrocities... How much more evidence of guilt and depravity do you need. I agree the Russians are friendly good people, and this is why they need to be liberated from the thugs that run their beautiful country.
  - soneil 4y ago
    "The Foundation for the Study of Democracy is led by Maksim Grigoriev. He is the Chairman of the Coordinating Council for Public Control over Voting at the Civic Chamber of the Russian Federation. The organisation started working on discrediting the Ukrainian side in 2013, when pro-Russian president of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych refused to sign the Association Agreement with the European Union." The document they provided is pure Russian propaganda. It doesn't need excusing.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
c0nducktr 4y ago
You know you can be sorry for more than one group of people at once, right?
heurisko 4y ago
I can remember what the Eurozone, as the Commission, Central Bank and IMF did to countries after the European sovereign debt crisis. There was a complete lack of solidarity, which precipitated a humanitarian crisis in countries like Greece. The idea of the Eurozone as something akin to a nation state is a myth.
- MagnumOpus 4y ago
  > There was a complete lack of solidarity You seem to remember things that are arguably untrue, I wonder why. The EU, ECB and IMF spent something like €300 billions for loans at extremely low interest rates (€30,000 for each Greek citizen) to keep Greece afloat and prevent it from going down in the way that Lebanon or other places outside the EU's aegis did more recently. And that despite the fact that Greek officials conspired to lie about debt/GDP numbers to get into the Eurozone, immediately broke Eurozone guidelines about deficits and debts to start fiscal giveaways, and after the crisis broke every promise about raising cash through privatisations.
  - heurisko 4y ago
    > to keep Greece afloat and prevent it from going down in the way that Lebanon or other places outside the EU's aegis did more recently No, they did it to keep the EU banking system afloat, which was exposed to Greek debt. They also wanted Greece to remain in the Euro, rather than returning to the drachma and admitting they couldn't square the circle of a shared currency without shared fiscal policy. Greece in the Euro vs Lebanon is a false dichotomy.
- nradov 4y ago
  The humanitarian crisis in Greece was caused by Greeks, not by a lack of Eurozone solidarity. And in humanitarian terms it wasn't even much of a crisis. No one starved to death.
  - heurisko 4y ago
    The austerity measures imposed by the EU Troika increased preventable mortality in Greece. https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2018/08/31/the-terrible-human-cost-of-greeces-bailouts/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2018/08/31/the-t... At the time, the German taxpayer rightly said "Why should I help the innocent citizens of Greece, when they can retire before me?" EU solidarity was not possible, as this would have meant the Germans having some say in cleaning up Greek corruption and/or equalising things like retirement age, in return for fiscal stimulus from the German taxpayer. Of course this can't happen under the EU, and will arguably never happen. So the only route is austerity.
blub 4y ago
Self-neglect of the EU for “good causes” outside the EU is a well-established pattern with the media and political elites and also in significant parts of the financially comfortable middle class. In the end, for them, poverty and additional difficulties in the lower classes are a good trade-off for silencing political rivals, feeding the military complex and most of all, feeling good about themselves. As the old saying goes, never let a crisis go to waste.

Be sorry for the Ukrainians. They suffer. The rest of the Eurozone will deal with the stuff. We always have. It's not the first crisis.

by oaiey 4y ago

Be sorry for the Ukrainians. They suffer. The rest of the Eurozone will deal with the stuff. We always have. It's not the first crisis.

goodguyamerikan 4y ago

gchokov 4y ago

kkfx 4y ago

[flagged]

nixarn 4y ago
Because of NATO and Nazis? Really? You have 8 million fleeing the country because of Russia's invasion, cities turned into ruins, civilians murdered, raped and tortured. If Russia was such a good guy in this scenario they would allow for freedom of press and speech. And they'd provide evidence everyone could back up. No country is perfect, also the document you shared was post Russia's first aggressions to annex Crimea, and you blame Ukraine? I don't doubt Ukrainians have done war crimes as well, it happens when you're at war. But it wouldn't have happened if Russia just let Ukraine alone to develop, it was doing pretty good compared to Russia before all of this.
- polotics 4y ago
  The joke that is Lavrov accusing the UK of having fabricated evidence of atrocities in Bucha, then blocking any UN resolution that would investigate said atrocities... How much more evidence of guilt and depravity do you need. I agree the Russians are friendly good people, and this is why they need to be liberated from the thugs that run their beautiful country.
- soneil 4y ago
  "The Foundation for the Study of Democracy is led by Maksim Grigoriev. He is the Chairman of the Coordinating Council for Public Control over Voting at the Civic Chamber of the Russian Federation. The organisation started working on discrediting the Ukrainian side in 2013, when pro-Russian president of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych refused to sign the Association Agreement with the European Union." The document they provided is pure Russian propaganda. It doesn't need excusing.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

c0nducktr 4y ago

You know you can be sorry for more than one group of people at once, right?

heurisko 4y ago

I can remember what the Eurozone, as the Commission, Central Bank and IMF did to countries after the European sovereign debt crisis. There was a complete lack of solidarity, which precipitated a humanitarian crisis in countries like Greece. The idea of the Eurozone as something akin to a nation state is a myth.

MagnumOpus 4y ago
> There was a complete lack of solidarity You seem to remember things that are arguably untrue, I wonder why. The EU, ECB and IMF spent something like €300 billions for loans at extremely low interest rates (€30,000 for each Greek citizen) to keep Greece afloat and prevent it from going down in the way that Lebanon or other places outside the EU's aegis did more recently. And that despite the fact that Greek officials conspired to lie about debt/GDP numbers to get into the Eurozone, immediately broke Eurozone guidelines about deficits and debts to start fiscal giveaways, and after the crisis broke every promise about raising cash through privatisations.
- heurisko 4y ago
  > to keep Greece afloat and prevent it from going down in the way that Lebanon or other places outside the EU's aegis did more recently No, they did it to keep the EU banking system afloat, which was exposed to Greek debt. They also wanted Greece to remain in the Euro, rather than returning to the drachma and admitting they couldn't square the circle of a shared currency without shared fiscal policy. Greece in the Euro vs Lebanon is a false dichotomy.
nradov 4y ago
The humanitarian crisis in Greece was caused by Greeks, not by a lack of Eurozone solidarity. And in humanitarian terms it wasn't even much of a crisis. No one starved to death.
- heurisko 4y ago
  The austerity measures imposed by the EU Troika increased preventable mortality in Greece. https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2018/08/31/the-terrible-human-cost-of-greeces-bailouts/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2018/08/31/the-t... At the time, the German taxpayer rightly said "Why should I help the innocent citizens of Greece, when they can retire before me?" EU solidarity was not possible, as this would have meant the Germans having some say in cleaning up Greek corruption and/or equalising things like retirement age, in return for fiscal stimulus from the German taxpayer. Of course this can't happen under the EU, and will arguably never happen. So the only route is austerity.

blub 4y ago

Self-neglect of the EU for “good causes” outside the EU is a well-established pattern with the media and political elites and also in significant parts of the financially comfortable middle class. In the end, for them, poverty and additional difficulties in the lower classes are a good trade-off for silencing political rivals, feeding the military complex and most of all, feeling good about themselves. As the old saying goes, never let a crisis go to waste.