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> until it isn’t the very best city anymore because everybody moved there. Wat. Cities are not parties that get diluted with lame people. London and Paris gre

> until it isn’t the very best city anymore because everybody moved there. Wat. Cities are not parties that get diluted with lame people. London and Paris grew large and rich in comparison to their respective countries. To the extent there is an equilibrium at play, it is a power law. There is no rotating most popular city, not withstanding what people think about San Francisco. Density wins, and the winners keep on winning absent some sort of disaster. I'm sorry, but this seems like a classic example of pulling out some Hobbesian cynicism as a calling card for classy sober thinking...but in this case it's dead wrong.

teakettle42 4y ago
> Wat. Cities are not parties that get diluted with lame people. If you fill a party past it’s optimal capacity, is the same kind of party? Are you still likely to enjoy being there? Why is a city any different? There are absolutely problems that only emerge with scale, and scale non-linearly with population and density. > London and Paris grew large and rich in comparison to their respective countries. “Large and rich” aren’t the values that most/many people want their communities to optimize for.
- pm90 4y ago
  > “Large and rich” aren’t the values that most/many people want their communities to optimize for. Maybe. But for the high growth job generating urban centers in todays US that’s certainly the case.
- Ericson2314 4y ago
  > optimal capacity Cities to do not have fixed capacity. > There are absolutely problems that only emerge with scale, and scale non-linearly with population and density. The biggest thing that doesn't scale is private car usage. But private car usage is terrible. I have not heard of extant cities hitting fundamental scaling constraints in and other way. > “Large and rich” aren’t the values that most/many people want their communities to optimize for. Then why aren't rents lower?
  - teakettle42 4y ago
    > Cities to do not have fixed capacity. That doesn’t mean they don’t have optimal capacities. The metrics you’re optimizing for are not necessarily high density and high population — like a dinner party, which would be impossible to scale and would ruin the experience if you tried. > I have not heard of extant cities hitting fundamental scaling constraints in and other way. You’re ignoring all other negatives to living in a city and high population density. Crime. No need for community involvement; everything is provided by paid municipal services. Not knowing your neighbors. Not having space to breath, or to have a woodshop, or to garden. The list is endless. You might not care about optimizing for those properties, but lots of other people do. > Then why aren't rents lower? They are in plenty of places, you just don’t want to live there.
    - Ericson2314 4y ago
      > That doesn’t mean they don’t have optimal capacities. > The metrics you’re optimizing for are not necessarily high density and high population — like a dinner party, which would be impossible to scale and would ruin the experience if you tried. You continue to crudely reason by analogy without mentioning what these scaling limits might be. > You’re ignoring all other negatives to living in a city and high population density. > Crime. What about cities are intrinsically more crime ridden? > No need for community involvement; What? > everything is provided by paid municipal services. False, even if I wish it were :P > Not knowing your neighbors. Again not intrinsic at all > Not having space to breath, or to have a woodshop, or to garden. You are confusing floor area per capita vs land area pre capita. Even gardens can be in boxes on balconies, see New Orleans. > The list is endless. You might not care about optimizing for those properties, but lots of other people do. > > Then why aren't rents lower? > They are in plenty of places, you just don’t want to live there. Hey buddy, if "weird city apologists" like me are not representative, then we can't bid up the the rent. Clearly a lot of people are trying to live in the major cities or they wouldn't be as high. ------ This is one of the worst comments I've ever responded to on HN. All vague NIMBY vibes, no actual reasoning whatsoever. Get that shit out of here.
      - 4y ago
nradov 4y ago
Density may win in some ways from a pure economic standpoint but the majority of people hate it, and will choose to live somewhere with some space and privacy if they can possibly afford. (Yes I am aware that some people actually prefer living in dense cities but they are a minority.)
- autoexec 4y ago
  Most people want space and privacy but still want to have access to the kinds of services, goods, entertainment and community urban areas offer. High population density is also a problem from an environmental perspective, so the best option seems to be somewhere in between. Away from crowded city centers, but not out in the middle of nowhere either.
  - Ericson2314 4y ago
    > High population density is also a problem from an environmental perspective Citation needed that high floor area per land area without low floor area per capita has environmental issues.
    - autoexec 4y ago
      It really just comes down to the number of bodies. As the number of people increases so does the strain on biocapacity. An area can only sustainably support so many people.
- Ericson2314 4y ago
  People prefer larger floor area per capita. That is independent of floor area per land area.

teakettle42 4y ago

> Wat. Cities are not parties that get diluted with lame people. If you fill a party past it’s optimal capacity, is the same kind of party? Are you still likely to enjoy being there? Why is a city any different? There are absolutely problems that only emerge with scale, and scale non-linearly with population and density. > London and Paris grew large and rich in comparison to their respective countries. “Large and rich” aren’t the values that most/many people want their communities to optimize for.

pm90 4y ago
> “Large and rich” aren’t the values that most/many people want their communities to optimize for. Maybe. But for the high growth job generating urban centers in todays US that’s certainly the case.
Ericson2314 4y ago
> optimal capacity Cities to do not have fixed capacity. > There are absolutely problems that only emerge with scale, and scale non-linearly with population and density. The biggest thing that doesn't scale is private car usage. But private car usage is terrible. I have not heard of extant cities hitting fundamental scaling constraints in and other way. > “Large and rich” aren’t the values that most/many people want their communities to optimize for. Then why aren't rents lower?
- teakettle42 4y ago
  > Cities to do not have fixed capacity. That doesn’t mean they don’t have optimal capacities. The metrics you’re optimizing for are not necessarily high density and high population — like a dinner party, which would be impossible to scale and would ruin the experience if you tried. > I have not heard of extant cities hitting fundamental scaling constraints in and other way. You’re ignoring all other negatives to living in a city and high population density. Crime. No need for community involvement; everything is provided by paid municipal services. Not knowing your neighbors. Not having space to breath, or to have a woodshop, or to garden. The list is endless. You might not care about optimizing for those properties, but lots of other people do. > Then why aren't rents lower? They are in plenty of places, you just don’t want to live there.
  - Ericson2314 4y ago
    > That doesn’t mean they don’t have optimal capacities. > The metrics you’re optimizing for are not necessarily high density and high population — like a dinner party, which would be impossible to scale and would ruin the experience if you tried. You continue to crudely reason by analogy without mentioning what these scaling limits might be. > You’re ignoring all other negatives to living in a city and high population density. > Crime. What about cities are intrinsically more crime ridden? > No need for community involvement; What? > everything is provided by paid municipal services. False, even if I wish it were :P > Not knowing your neighbors. Again not intrinsic at all > Not having space to breath, or to have a woodshop, or to garden. You are confusing floor area per capita vs land area pre capita. Even gardens can be in boxes on balconies, see New Orleans. > The list is endless. You might not care about optimizing for those properties, but lots of other people do. > > Then why aren't rents lower? > They are in plenty of places, you just don’t want to live there. Hey buddy, if "weird city apologists" like me are not representative, then we can't bid up the the rent. Clearly a lot of people are trying to live in the major cities or they wouldn't be as high. ------ This is one of the worst comments I've ever responded to on HN. All vague NIMBY vibes, no actual reasoning whatsoever. Get that shit out of here.
    - 4y ago

nradov 4y ago

Density may win in some ways from a pure economic standpoint but the majority of people hate it, and will choose to live somewhere with some space and privacy if they can possibly afford. (Yes I am aware that some people actually prefer living in dense cities but they are a minority.)

autoexec 4y ago
Most people want space and privacy but still want to have access to the kinds of services, goods, entertainment and community urban areas offer. High population density is also a problem from an environmental perspective, so the best option seems to be somewhere in between. Away from crowded city centers, but not out in the middle of nowhere either.
- Ericson2314 4y ago
  > High population density is also a problem from an environmental perspective Citation needed that high floor area per land area without low floor area per capita has environmental issues.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    It really just comes down to the number of bodies. As the number of people increases so does the strain on biocapacity. An area can only sustainably support so many people.
Ericson2314 4y ago
People prefer larger floor area per capita. That is independent of floor area per land area.