6 ms·

Here are all the ways it spies on you: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/search?q=Telemetry%3A%3AInstance https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/search?q=Te

by Lammy 5y ago

Here are all the ways it spies on you: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/search?q=Telemetry%3A%3AInstance https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/search?q=Telemetry%3A%... https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/main/src/host/telemetry.hpp https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/main/src/host/tel...

whywhywhywhy 5y ago
ok, what do those do?
- foolfoolz 5y ago
  tell microsoft when you’re using features. presumably because they have a culture of metrics and every feature is required to have data on its usage patterns
  - nojito 5y ago
    It's just used to drive improvement efforts rather than focusing on features + bugs no one cares about/uses.
- rolph 5y ago
  i read the code , they take usage data points build a logfile and wait for a request to retrive.
- Lammy 5y ago
  There are some pretty detailed comments on many of them if you click through to their call sites, and more can be inferred from the file names of the callers. Let's take a look at `windowio.cpp` for example. This most-generic event fires every time you type any input character on the keyboard: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/interactivity/win32/windowio.cpp#L165-L173 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... It also has more-specific events for several different ways of selecting, copying, and pasting text: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/interactivity/win32/windowio.cpp#L230-L329 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... In `find.cpp` we can see it log every time you find the next result in the "Find" dialog, as well as when the dialog is closed: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/interactivity/win32/find.cpp#L64-L82 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... In `windowproc.cpp` we can see it log every time you resize a console window, close a console window, bring up the context (right-click) menu, drag-and-drop on to a console window: - https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/interactivity/win32/windowproc.cpp#L164-L174 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... - https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/interactivity/win32/windowproc.cpp#L323-L332 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... - https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/interactivity/win32/windowproc.cpp#L474 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... - https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/interactivity/win32/windowproc.cpp#L868-L872 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... This even extends outside the "Terminal" application wrapper itself, with a generic "LogApiCall" used to track e.g. any time any other process spawns a console window: - https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/host/srvinit.cpp#L797-L798 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... - https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/host/telemetry.hpp#L56-L124 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... Click around a few of the search results and see what else you can find!
  - mftb 5y ago
    Thanks for doing this. Looking over some of the actual call sites and there commentary was interesting. For all the folks who say it's all totally innocuous (or even beneficial). Even if it is, I can tell you, I have no interest in my computer doing this while I'm using it.
    - donmcronald 5y ago
      I've always wondered what the performance impact is. Windows 10 feels so slow compared to Windows 7 and earlier that I'm constantly wondering how much of my life is being allocated to telemetry.
      - mftb 5y ago
        Not sure but it's a reasonable question. I'm willing to give MS the benefit of the doubt and guess that they have generally implemented it in as light a way as possible, but that said sometimes it probably causes dire performance problems to outright breakage. For me it's largely academic at this point, but it's another reason to be happy I moved my main workstation off Windows.
        sirsinsalot 5y ago
        You're willing to give MS the benefit of the doubt? I remember the bad old days and they no longer have this luxury from me.
        mftb 5y ago
        Understood and when I was being forced to deal with it more often, I was not feeling so magnanimous either.
      - jiggawatts 5y ago
        The impact is absolutely noticeable, just difficult to attribute. Every time I rebuild my laptop it has these “mysterious” slowdown periods that force me to dig through the metrics to see what is the culprit. About 80% of the time it’s telemetry. The worst one is actually the Intel driver installer which has telemetry that is so far beyond obnoxious that it’s an embarrassment to every so-called “engineer” involved. Shame. Shame.
kingcharles 5y ago
Compile it without those functions?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
voidfunc 5y ago
The horror!
stockerta 5y ago
- Lammy 5y ago
  It doesn't have to be a full keylogger to be a very bad thing: https://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/ https://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metad...
- skywal_l 5y ago
  The overton window is moving fast... You should not need telemetry on a terminal. It's a fscksing terminal, a window in which you display characters, why would anyone need telemetry? I am sure it is not intended as a keylogger but could become one very quickly if they fscks it up. It's microsoft we are talking about...
Melatonic 5y ago
While I am not a huge fan of the way Windows is going in general for the most part you can turn off most of the tracking that is currently enabled. Unfortunately I do not have direct experience with the telemetry tracking for windows terminal.
Guillaume86 5y ago
Just glancing through them it looks like perfectly reasonable telemetry collection, not sure why you call that spying.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
  What's wrong with spying. But seriously, since Microsoft is sharing the source code, why not just remove the unwanted telemetry and re-compile. How easy would that be.
- Lammy 5y ago
  spy (/spaɪ/) v., 1 : [intransitive] to collect secret information about another country, organization or person
  - meowkit 5y ago
    Is your runtime data “secret”? I think some people will have a hard time with this concept, but the idea of data being “private” or “secret”, by default, is disappearing. And it won’t be coming back if the world continues to digitize. If you want those attributes for your data, you’ll have to take measures. That means reading user agreements, verifying open source, using encryption intentionally. Vacuuming up data is not spying. Especially if you essentially agree to it when you accept the Windows terms of service (ethical issues of this aside).
    - Lammy 5y ago
      > Especially if you essentially agree to it when you accept the Windows terms of service (ethical issues of this aside) “But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
  - DoctorOW 5y ago
ossusermivami 5y ago
as a software dev you know that soft anonymous telemetry of how a user use what you do is very valuable to make decision on how to make things.... I wish there was way everywhere to collect with privacy and being accepted by user as not something we want to spie people on... but as always there is (a lot ) of abuse in this area so this may never going to happen
- contravariant 5y ago
  Well if my only choice is 'send arbitrary information on what I'm doing' and 'don't send any information' I'm always going to pick the latter. Has anyone tried just showing people the information the application would like to report back? I know it's been tried with crash reports.
- a1369209993 5y ago
  > as a software dev you know that soft anonymous telemetry of how a user use what you do is very valuable to make decision on how to make things.... No, actually, on account of being a software dev, I know that telemetry is actively counterproductive when making decisions on how to make things. It makes your decisions more wrong, not less.
  - ossusermivami 5y ago
    would you care to explain why is this ? even as OSS software maker, would you start working on features because they are "cool" or a bunch of people yelling^H^Hasking for it on twitter?
    - a1369209993 5y ago
      > would you care to explain why is this? I assume it's yet another case of the fallacy of revealed preferences. If you look at what people actually do, any insight into what they want is confounded by environmental effects (eg, they'd prefer to use feature A, but feature A is missing or inconvenient to access, so they end up mostly using feature B), selection bias (feature A is most useful to precisely the people who know how to turn off or deliberately break telemetry), and other issues (A/B testing confirms that people have a revealed preference for clicking on animated icons (because they're trying to make the fucking thing stop squirming in their peripheral vision while they're trying to concentrate on something else)). (Talking with users is definitely possible (usually easy) to screw up, but I have yet to encounter any evidence that it's possible to not screw up telemetry-based design decisions by any means other than ignoring the telemetry.)
ansraliant 5y ago
digisign 5y ago
So many folks in this subthread don't seem to realize that computer security is a thing to be desired and a fundamental right. Or, it was on Windows and Mac until the last decade or so. There are real costs to not being able to trust your own local computer and personal information. History is rife with examples, from IBM and internment during WWII to the malware and NSA of modern times. Data is no longer deleted.

by Lammy 5y ago

whywhywhywhy 5y ago

ok, what do those do?

foolfoolz 5y ago
tell microsoft when you’re using features. presumably because they have a culture of metrics and every feature is required to have data on its usage patterns
- nojito 5y ago
  It's just used to drive improvement efforts rather than focusing on features + bugs no one cares about/uses.
rolph 5y ago
i read the code , they take usage data points build a logfile and wait for a request to retrive.
Lammy 5y ago
There are some pretty detailed comments on many of them if you click through to their call sites, and more can be inferred from the file names of the callers. Let's take a look at `windowio.cpp` for example. This most-generic event fires every time you type any input character on the keyboard: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/interactivity/win32/windowio.cpp#L165-L173 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... It also has more-specific events for several different ways of selecting, copying, and pasting text: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/interactivity/win32/windowio.cpp#L230-L329 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... In `find.cpp` we can see it log every time you find the next result in the "Find" dialog, as well as when the dialog is closed: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/interactivity/win32/find.cpp#L64-L82 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... In `windowproc.cpp` we can see it log every time you resize a console window, close a console window, bring up the context (right-click) menu, drag-and-drop on to a console window: - https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/interactivity/win32/windowproc.cpp#L164-L174 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... - https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/interactivity/win32/windowproc.cpp#L323-L332 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... - https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/interactivity/win32/windowproc.cpp#L474 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... - https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/interactivity/win32/windowproc.cpp#L868-L872 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... This even extends outside the "Terminal" application wrapper itself, with a generic "LogApiCall" used to track e.g. any time any other process spawns a console window: - https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/host/srvinit.cpp#L797-L798 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... - https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/host/telemetry.hpp#L56-L124 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac... Click around a few of the search results and see what else you can find!
- mftb 5y ago
  Thanks for doing this. Looking over some of the actual call sites and there commentary was interesting. For all the folks who say it's all totally innocuous (or even beneficial). Even if it is, I can tell you, I have no interest in my computer doing this while I'm using it.
  - donmcronald 5y ago
    I've always wondered what the performance impact is. Windows 10 feels so slow compared to Windows 7 and earlier that I'm constantly wondering how much of my life is being allocated to telemetry.
    - mftb 5y ago
      Not sure but it's a reasonable question. I'm willing to give MS the benefit of the doubt and guess that they have generally implemented it in as light a way as possible, but that said sometimes it probably causes dire performance problems to outright breakage. For me it's largely academic at this point, but it's another reason to be happy I moved my main workstation off Windows.
      - sirsinsalot 5y ago
        You're willing to give MS the benefit of the doubt? I remember the bad old days and they no longer have this luxury from me.
        mftb 5y ago
        Understood and when I was being forced to deal with it more often, I was not feeling so magnanimous either.
    - jiggawatts 5y ago
      The impact is absolutely noticeable, just difficult to attribute. Every time I rebuild my laptop it has these “mysterious” slowdown periods that force me to dig through the metrics to see what is the culprit. About 80% of the time it’s telemetry. The worst one is actually the Intel driver installer which has telemetry that is so far beyond obnoxious that it’s an embarrassment to every so-called “engineer” involved. Shame. Shame.

kingcharles 5y ago

Compile it without those functions?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

voidfunc 5y ago

The horror!

stockerta 5y ago

Lammy 5y ago
It doesn't have to be a full keylogger to be a very bad thing: https://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/ https://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metad...
skywal_l 5y ago
The overton window is moving fast... You should not need telemetry on a terminal. It's a fscksing terminal, a window in which you display characters, why would anyone need telemetry? I am sure it is not intended as a keylogger but could become one very quickly if they fscks it up. It's microsoft we are talking about...

Melatonic 5y ago

While I am not a huge fan of the way Windows is going in general for the most part you can turn off most of the tracking that is currently enabled. Unfortunately I do not have direct experience with the telemetry tracking for windows terminal.

Guillaume86 5y ago

Just glancing through them it looks like perfectly reasonable telemetry collection, not sure why you call that spying.

1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
What's wrong with spying. But seriously, since Microsoft is sharing the source code, why not just remove the unwanted telemetry and re-compile. How easy would that be.
Lammy 5y ago
spy (/spaɪ/) v., 1 : [intransitive] to collect secret information about another country, organization or person
- meowkit 5y ago
  Is your runtime data “secret”? I think some people will have a hard time with this concept, but the idea of data being “private” or “secret”, by default, is disappearing. And it won’t be coming back if the world continues to digitize. If you want those attributes for your data, you’ll have to take measures. That means reading user agreements, verifying open source, using encryption intentionally. Vacuuming up data is not spying. Especially if you essentially agree to it when you accept the Windows terms of service (ethical issues of this aside).
  - Lammy 5y ago
    > Especially if you essentially agree to it when you accept the Windows terms of service (ethical issues of this aside) “But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
- DoctorOW 5y ago

ossusermivami 5y ago

as a software dev you know that soft anonymous telemetry of how a user use what you do is very valuable to make decision on how to make things.... I wish there was way everywhere to collect with privacy and being accepted by user as not something we want to spie people on... but as always there is (a lot ) of abuse in this area so this may never going to happen

contravariant 5y ago
Well if my only choice is 'send arbitrary information on what I'm doing' and 'don't send any information' I'm always going to pick the latter. Has anyone tried just showing people the information the application would like to report back? I know it's been tried with crash reports.
a1369209993 5y ago
> as a software dev you know that soft anonymous telemetry of how a user use what you do is very valuable to make decision on how to make things.... No, actually, on account of being a software dev, I know that telemetry is actively counterproductive when making decisions on how to make things. It makes your decisions more wrong, not less.
- ossusermivami 5y ago
  would you care to explain why is this ? even as OSS software maker, would you start working on features because they are "cool" or a bunch of people yelling^H^Hasking for it on twitter?
  - a1369209993 5y ago
    > would you care to explain why is this? I assume it's yet another case of the fallacy of revealed preferences. If you look at what people actually do, any insight into what they want is confounded by environmental effects (eg, they'd prefer to use feature A, but feature A is missing or inconvenient to access, so they end up mostly using feature B), selection bias (feature A is most useful to precisely the people who know how to turn off or deliberately break telemetry), and other issues (A/B testing confirms that people have a revealed preference for clicking on animated icons (because they're trying to make the fucking thing stop squirming in their peripheral vision while they're trying to concentrate on something else)). (Talking with users is definitely possible (usually easy) to screw up, but I have yet to encounter any evidence that it's possible to not screw up telemetry-based design decisions by any means other than ignoring the telemetry.)

ansraliant 5y ago

digisign 5y ago

So many folks in this subthread don't seem to realize that computer security is a thing to be desired and a fundamental right. Or, it was on Windows and Mac until the last decade or so. There are real costs to not being able to trust your own local computer and personal information. History is rife with examples, from IBM and internment during WWII to the malware and NSA of modern times. Data is no longer deleted.