11 ms·

When Greenswashing Backfires – Thank You North Face

87 points by yessirwhatever 4y ago

pfortuny 4y ago
Totally spot on. When oil is evil, many products become evil which very few people realize.
- andybak 4y ago
  Luckily we don't have to think in terms of moral absolutes.
  - thrill 4y ago
    Moral absolutes get votes.
- subsubzero 4y ago
  Oil is nothing but decomposed plants/plankton, a resource that is not renewable at least not in our lifetimes. Fun fact, go to Santa Barbara CA and walk the beach, the blobs of oil that pop up occasionally are not from some man made catastrophe but naturally occurring oil that is seeping from the ground and washing up on the beaches. Try to get your head around that, a oil spill being a natural system of nature! I think we need to wean off oil and gas and onto better and more efficient power systems but am glad I do not equate natural products as "evil".
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    Plastics can be synthesized from CO2, water and a ton of energy, so they could be renewable if we wanted them to be. The process would even be carbon negative, since plastics take a long time to decompose and release their embodied carbon.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nopeNopeNooope 4y ago
This is bullshit, the amount of oil and gas used for garments and plastics is a pittance compared to what we burn to move those products around. Nobody is saying oil and gas is evil. What is evil is profiting and pretending we don't need to change how we fuel our economy. What we build our durable goods out of isn't in question.
- hh3k0 4y ago
  Clothes that use synthetic fibers are shedding microplastics whenever you wear them, wash them, etc. You shouldn't wear such garbage if you care about the environment (and your health).
  - spaetzleesser 4y ago
    What’s the alternative?
    - Melatonic 4y ago
      You can also minimize the shedding by using special bags while washing ( I forget the name ) if you want to use them for specific outdoor pursuits. But for everyday use there are lots of natural fibers that are great alternatives to polyester, nylon, etc. Cotton of course is well known, linen is generally much better environmental wise, and if properly taken care of (and if the animals are cared for correctly) there are many animals fibers that have really great performance properties. Merino wool being the most well known of course and Alpaca being the biggest up and comer (basically has all of upsides of merino and none of the downsides)
- karaterobot 4y ago
  It's not exactly bullshit, 10% of the global carbon emission is a result of the fashion industry[1], which isn't a pittance. But you are totally right that transportation is a much bigger share. The North Face's own contribution is probably a pittance. This is one of those situations where I don't like anybody on either side, and just hope that the argument doesn't get too annoying before it goes away. I don't think oil and gas is evil (because it is amoral) but the industry certainly is destructive, both in its externalized costs, and in how it tries to prevent people from fixing the mess we've made together in order to sustain itself. The fashion industry is similar in that it depends on weaknesses in human nature, and both would happily ride our civilization into the grave rather than abandon their business models. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/fast-fashion-environmental-impact-pollution-emissions-waste-water-2019-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/fast-fashion-environmental-i...
baisq 4y ago
I find amusing to use "Oil & Gas" as if it was some kind of demonic entity.
- bitwize 4y ago
  Oil and gas as a demonic entity... so, Hexxus from FernGully?
- DoingIsLearning 4y ago
  Actually I do have to agree on the demonic entity assesment. Oil and Gas conglomerates actively colluded in fabricating fake science to descredit the impact of GHG. As well as withheld information from the public and governments on their own data showing severe projections on climate change. [0] [1] This is short term profit at the cost of _literally_ Human Survival. Considering that Climate Calamity will be the major threat to Human life in large chunks of the planet by the time my children come of age, it looks pretty demonic in my book. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil_climate_change_controversy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil_climate_change_co... [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/shell-grappled-with-climate-change-20-years-ago-documents-show/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/shell-grappled-wi...
chomp 4y ago
Update headline to include (2021) Also, a couple things: 1.) North Face really really cares about image and marketing. In my opinion, there's nothing special to their product- it's all image. So, blocking O&G companies from branding their gear is somewhat understandable. 2.) They do use some eco-friendly material, and (supposedly, maybe) will have more responsibly sourced material coming by 2025 (not sure if they committed to this before, or after this debacle). 3.) It's funny to me that his best defense of oil and gas is "you live in an oil and gas society, so, gotcha!"
- flavius29663 4y ago
  We all need oil and gas to sustain our modern lifestyle. To pretend otherwise it's just hypocritical. Blaming the oil companies for allowing us a comfortable and easy life is so shortsighted - we don't want to live like Tarzan...
  - rhn_mk1 4y ago
    Nobody's blaming them for having gotten us easy lives. What they are blamed for is not leaving the scene when we need to move on.
    - zdragnar 4y ago
      They'll leave the scene when we move on.
      - rhn_mk1 4y ago
        ...while actively trying to prevent it by gaslighting the rest of us about the urgency https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-climate-change-almost-40-years-ago/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-...
  - bozhark 4y ago
    More like… holding the oil and gas companies responsible for knowingly trying to hide their negative environmental/social/economic impact of their industry… since the 1960’s
boringg 4y ago
This guy misses the point - classic pro Oil & Gas rant on how they are the boogie man. The point is that we don't want to be beholden to oil and gas going forward. Look at all the campaigns to put out misinformation about oil and gas by the Oil Majors (since the 1980s). Yes Oil and Gas is part of the economy and all of its various products, but let's not make it the lynchpin and let's decarbonize our energy systems. Every time these guys (oil executives or proxies) open their mouths you really see how much they don't understand the landscape outside of oil and gas industry. Also remember this a polished message, I'd be curious to see their backroom conversations...
- slowmovintarget 4y ago
  How does one make a plastic jacket without plastic? Delivery and shipping aside, the basic raw materials for plastics come from the petrochemical industry colloquially referred to as "Oil & Gas." Personally, I'd be in favor of banning plastics from garments as they are the single largest source of microplastic pollution and non-recyclable consumer goods on the market. But if you make plastic garments, you're part of the precipitate.
  - admax88qqq 4y ago
    Maybe you dont make a plastic jacket without plastic. Buy maybe you don't burn tons of oil in cars and planes you can maken a shit ton of plastic jackets without spewing nearly as many greenhouse gasses. Decarbonize doesn't mean we have to use 0 oil, it means we have to use way less.
  - droopyEyelids 4y ago
    What is odd to me, is that they call out North Face instead of Patagonia- Patagonia is working hard to ensure their clothing is ONLY plastic, trying to completely remove all natural fibers and materials from their offerings. North face still has plenty of cotton and wool options.
    - neon_electro 4y ago
      Source for this? I've typically been happy to buy pre-owned Patagonia clothes from their own pre-owned store, but I hadn't heard this news.
owlninja 4y ago
I was a bit confused, this article provided some more details https://www.outsidebusinessjournal.com/issues/what-happens-when-an-oil-company-publicly-accuses-the-north-face-of-hypocrisy/ https://www.outsidebusinessjournal.com/issues/what-happens-w... From July 2021 FYI
- visviva 4y ago
  Thanks. This would've been a much better submission, IMO.
  - warning26 4y ago
    Agreed -- YouTube rants have no place on HN, IMO.
mikkergp 4y ago
I was never a fan of their clothing, but I was really turned off when they sued a teenager for creating a parody brand "The South Butt".
- bozhark 4y ago
  What in the fuck judge would allow that in their court
  - karatinversion 4y ago
    A lawsuit is just a tweet with a filing fee
    - munk-a 4y ago
      Only if you allow districts to exist that refuse to adapt anti-slapp laws. There is a solution to this problem, we've just failed to adopt it. Edit: Just to clarify - I'm not advocating for removing state autonomy when it comes to legal legislation - but I am advocating for adopting some national anti-slapp rules.
      - leephillips 4y ago
        How can a national rule not infringe upon state autonomy?
        munk-a 4y ago
        A national rule can be targeted for this specific domain and not rob states of their other powers.
        leephillips 4y ago
        It would seem to be a tautology that a rule about A will not infringe on state autonomy about B. But what if the state prefers to retain its autonomy about A?
gamblor956 4y ago
North Face uses rayon, which is derived from bamboo, not oil and gas... But it's not like the oil and gas industry hasn't been caught lying a billion times before. (Note that their less premium offerings available at Target and Walmart might use fibers derived from oil and gas. Their premium stuff does not.)
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  North Face certainly uses polyester, this is not in question.
- jakear 4y ago
  Their most expensive item [1] is 49% nylon and 33% polyester body, with some components being 90% polyester. The only recycled part is the lining, which is conveniently the least dense. Not sure what's more premium than that. [1] https://www.thenorthface.com/shop/mens-jackets-vests/mens-expedition-mcmurdo-parka-nf0a5gfa?variationId=JK3 https://www.thenorthface.com/shop/mens-jackets-vests/mens-ex...
- didymospl 4y ago
  Maybe USA is different but in EU their outdoor clothes are made predominantly of nylon and polyester. I don't think rayon have the properties needed for outdoor jackets. Obviously, this doesn't mean the man from the video is right, but it's for plenty other reasons.
bsmith89 4y ago
I think my gripe with the argument in this video (which is, nonetheless, interesting from an offensive marketing perspective) is that equating making clothes out of petroleum products with "being a friend of the oil and gas industry" is disingenuous. For the most part, the environmentally disastrous emissions come from _burning_ fossil fuels; I'm guessing cheap plastics are just a side-effect of a massive energy market, and not a major driver of the industry.
- nrjames 4y ago
  That used to be the case, but the industry is incorporating more cheap plastics to harden against future projected fossil fuel revenue loss. On that topic, this PBS Frontline episode is a good resource: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/plastic-wars/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/plastic-wars/
  - RC_ITR 4y ago
    If we turn every ounce of oil in the ground into plastic that's a problem, but a way more manageable one than burning even half that amount in our atmosphere.
    - condour75 4y ago
      Hell, you could look at it as carbon sequestration.
    - schwartzworld 4y ago
      Given that we're already seeing plastics inside human blood and fetuses, I don't think we could really say how manageable that state would be
      - scoofy 4y ago
        I think this is a fair concern, but if we're being honest, we know the real, present, and accelerating danger from putting more GHGs into the atmosphere. We are currently unaware of the negative impacts of traces of plastics in our bodies. It makes a ton of sense to put the literal fire out now, and worry about what the effects of the plastics are when there is evidence of serious concern.
wiz21c 4y ago
I've enjoyed watching for 3.5 minutes a man that will soon transform himself into a dinosaur...
chad_strategic 4y ago
Just think all the energy and time we wasted with this article that is confusing and that Steve Jobs / Anderson Cooper want be.
1970-01-01 4y ago
A private jet terminal is unnecessary for a clothing business. North Face, they got you on that. https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2019/11/26/vf-corp-centennial-airport-hangar.html https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2019/11/26/vf-corp-c...
- rsync 4y ago
  "VF Corp. has purchased land at Centennial Airport where it plans to build a hangar for its fleet of private jets used by executives who travel the globe for business." ... a little something I like to refer to as: Ends disguised as means.
  - soared 4y ago
    Even more odd, because oracle and a few other companies fly a ton of jets out of an airport 10 minutes away from there in interlocken.
kenbolton 4y ago
Wool ftw! I consider my primary work to be in outdoor leadership. I've built my wardrobe around sustainable wool. Gore is working toward more sustainable waterproof/breathable materials, and the manufacturer I buy GoreTex from, Kokatat, is committed to healthy watersheds because that is where their customers play. When your playground is the rivers and oceans, you play downstream from nearly everyone.
- tweetle_beetle 4y ago
  > Gore is working toward more sustainable waterproof/breathable materials They are moving very slowly and it's hard to see it as more than greenwashing. Modern Gore-Tex is effectively unrepairable (anything more than a small neat cut) and therefore unsustainable. These days it's 2 or 3 layers of plastic glued/bonded together, with extra glue/bonding along the seams, extra glue/bonding on fasteners and maybe even extra glue/bonding to other fabrics. It uses techniques requiring sophisticated manufacturing processes, which cannot be replicated at home, and Gore makes it difficult to buy Gore-Tex by the metre as a consumer even if you wanted to. Don't even think about sourcing specialist zippers if they break. Yes, the outer face fabric may have a limited recycled content which companies like to focus on, but, like paper manufacturing, performance materials generally require some virgin material. It is also all soaked in chemicals to prevent it actually needing to be Gore-Tex, only recently has there been a modest effort to use alternatives which don't shed fluorocarbons in use - even though they have been available for some time. It works fairly well, but that performance relies a great deal on it not being eco-friendly.
  - kenbolton 4y ago
    The manufacturer downstream from Gore has a great repair service, but we've repaired GoreTex in the field with a GoreTex patch adhered with AquaSeal for larger tears and a drop of AquaSeal for pin-holes. I agree that they could be doing a better job, as can we all.
alex_young 4y ago
Isn't calling this "greenwashing" quite a bit of editorialization? This title is more flame-bait than the content it links to and that's saying something.
rsync 4y ago
God it just kills me to hear otherwise educated, well spoken people pronounce "et cetera" with a 'K'.
- SonOfLilit 4y ago
  Like you would pronounce it in Latin? I mean, it's wrong, but in the too-educated direction, not the not-educated-enough direction.
  - rsync 4y ago
    You misunderstand me - I am saying he pronounces the 't' in 'et' like a K.
  - sideshowb 4y ago
    The fact that the c in tacit is usually pronounced softly is tacit knowledge
- hn_go_brrrrr 4y ago
  Many classicists believe the Latin C sounded like our K. So you get words pronounced like Kaesar, ketera, kivis, etc.
  - slobiwan 4y ago
    Pretty sure the comment was about the video narrator pronouncing it "ek setera", not "et setera" or even "et ketera" (I counted 3 instances). And I agree, just like people who say "supposably[1]", it exposes somebody who isn't well read. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qsJzB74N7o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qsJzB74N7o
    - smegsicle 4y ago
      or "ex etera"
- ptomato 4y ago
  that's an (historical latin pronunciation is a subject of some debate) acceptable latin pronunciation of it.
seydor 4y ago
my north faces have lasted more than decade and are easier to clean. other than that i do not understand anything from this video
photochemsyn 4y ago
North Face is a classic example of neoliberalism run amok. They used to manufacture their products in a Berkeley factory, but that was shut down in 1993 as neoliberal trade deals opened up access to low-wage factories around the world. The current list of manufacturing sites is fairly broad, but Vietnam and Bangladesh appear to be among the main ones. Notably, when you hear about the crisis of homelessness around the SF Bay Area, keep in mind that in the 1980s (when there were not nearly as many homeless, like 90% less by population ratio), there were a lot more garment and electronics manufacturing jobs in the region. https://themenhero.com/where-is-the-north-face-made/ https://themenhero.com/where-is-the-north-face-made/ Since sales are probably not that high in Vietnam/Bangaladesh etc., this requires a robust global shipping system to get product from factory to consumer (probably mostly in North America, Europe, Japan, but sales location isn't reported much). It's a safe bet that cost-of-shipping increases are more than made up for by cost-of-manufacturing decreases due to outsourcing. As far as the raw materials going into nylon/polyester, yes those are petrochemicals but could be replaced by aerochemicals, i.e. direct capture of CO2 and conversion to butadiene, ethylene, etc. for feeding into synthetic fabric production. Such tech is currently expensive, but if all the oil & gas & coal on the planet suddenly vanished, we could still make nylon. On the whole oil & gas issue, this article/podcast lays it out nicely. Apparently it's all about having consistent brand image management: https://supplychainnow.com/north-face-dilemma-670/ https://supplychainnow.com/north-face-dilemma-670/
- Melatonic 4y ago
  Not sure I would say it is specifically a case of neoliberalism but just a great example of what happens when a smaller/medium sized company with a single founder with a vision grows and gets taken over by the classic capitalistic fat cats. You can see it in many larger companies product lines and timelines - they start out and build a good reputation and give a shit about their employees and then eventually grow to a point where they just have an endless drivel of product lines and production lines. Have not heard much about aerochemicals but that certainly sounds interesting (although probably insanely expensive). Personally I think the realistic approach is to focus (currently) on making textiles that are extra durable for better longevity so that even if the original production method is not perfect we can at least keep using it indefinitely or get it resold on the used market.
jerlam 4y ago
Is there any evidence that North Face's actions "backfired" other than the creation of this video and the loss of a microscopic corporate customer? This also seems similar to the actions of one of North Face's customers, Patagonia, when they stopped doing co-branding with some VC firms: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19558512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19558512 (2019).
lkrubner 4y ago
Two things: My parents were given, as a gift, a wool blanket in 1963, and it was on our beds when we were children, and I have it on my bed now. It’s durability is like something out of a science-fiction story, an incredible substance that can take decades of use without showing signs of wear. It is not frayed or ugly; it is still in good shape. Im almost baffled how it endured. Good wool is amazing. In 1989 my mom bought me my first real backpack, a NorthFace. Over the next 32 years, I travelled all over with it. I hiked the Appalachian Trail with it. I hiked mountains in Colorado with it. I took it on bike trips. I took it all over Europe. The quality was amazing. Finally, the zippers gave out. I gave up on it last year. I bought another NorthFace backpack. The quality is terrible. After 1 year it is showing signs of wear. Everything about it seems cheap and badly done. I am very disappointed to see the shift in quality in NorthFace over those 32 years.
- jdkee 4y ago
  Decontenting products and offshoring is how American manufacturers maintained margins over the past thirty years.
- rapnie 4y ago
  > Finally, the zippers gave out. I gave up on it last year. Pity that you ditched it. I recently had zipper replaced at a clothing repair shop on my quality old trusted winter jacket.. thought it would be very expensive, but it was not. As for your experience with the new North Face jacket. That is my experience too. Brands that were known for quality are now 'just brands' and that's what you pay for: the logo.
  - jhbadger 4y ago
    Exactly. Like when L.L. Bean stuff was actually made in Maine it was incredible. They've gotten rid of their "lifetime replacement guarantee" supposedly because of people abusing it by buying old boots and things in yard sales and returning them for new ones, but the fact is they couldn't really do it any more because while their stuff used to last forever, now it doesn't.
Melatonic 4y ago
As someone who considers themselves a huge environmentalist this video is unfortunately sort of bullshit. 1. He claims that the entire "outdoor" movement was created by Oil and Gas which I think we know is total BS. Humans have been exploring the outdoors long before oil and gas - hunting - exploring - etc. 2. While TNF does definitely produce a ton of crap (and is really not my favourite brand in general) there is just currently no better substitute performance wise for petroleum based products in many areas. You can make a lot out of natural materials but a nice and lightweight waterproof jacket is not really one of them. 3. The original founder of the TNF (now deceased) bought tons and tons of land throughout Chile for years that people thought was for malicious ends. It turned out to be, however, that they were instead intending to donate the land to create even more natural parks (which Chile already has a ton of). Not a small amount of land here - we are talking quite a bit. The "outdoor industry" in general has pretty much all of the problems he lists and tons of companies don't do shit in reality to help the environment. Would I prefer for all of these companies to stop making so much VOLUME of product and instead focus on quality and longevity and for consumers to focus more on buying used and second hand products? Of course. But this doesn't seem intended to really focus on that at all and is just a hit piece specifically on TNF. Who is paying for this advertisement and what is their motivation? Why not focus instead on the problems of the outdoor industry in general?
- exabrial 4y ago
  This whole campaign is stupid. Textiles make like (googles fervently) .8% (probably) to 5% (probably not) of all oil consumption. And this doesn't end up in the atmosphere, it's solidified. The highlight of this video: > TNF has PROPANE fireplaces!!!! It literally took more energy to stream this video on the internet than it did to heat a lounge with propane. Calm down now there buddy. > but OCEAN PLASTICS!!!! Ok, this is a good one. First, how often are you washing your fancy TNF jacket? Probably once a year, because you don't want to ruin the water proofing treatment. The EPA, when they're not busy buying $5k office chairs, is actually doing good work updating requirements for Wastewater Treatment plant guidelines to tackle microplastics, but this again, misses major sources. Actually looking at the quoted sources for most of the graphs only count developed countries. They miss third world areas where rivers are used for trash disposal. This is an enormous amount of effort targeting a minor abuse of plastics. To the above poster's point: if anything, they should be ragging on them to make their products repairable. I still subscribe to "buy once, buy quality", which is why I don't own anything TNF. I'm on my second zipper on my 5 year old Columbia, which I bought specifically because it looked like it could be easily replaced.
julienchastang 4y ago
His arguments are straw man in nature. I think we all agree that fossil fuels have led to orders of magnitude increases in standard of living, at least for most humans. That is not really in dispute. But it is now time to move on to new sources of energy that are not so destructive for the planet and biodiversity; renewables, nuclear, and ultimately fusion. We need to look forward, not back.
xbar 4y ago

pfortuny 4y ago

Totally spot on. When oil is evil, many products become evil which very few people realize.

andybak 4y ago
Luckily we don't have to think in terms of moral absolutes.
- thrill 4y ago
  Moral absolutes get votes.
subsubzero 4y ago
Oil is nothing but decomposed plants/plankton, a resource that is not renewable at least not in our lifetimes. Fun fact, go to Santa Barbara CA and walk the beach, the blobs of oil that pop up occasionally are not from some man made catastrophe but naturally occurring oil that is seeping from the ground and washing up on the beaches. Try to get your head around that, a oil spill being a natural system of nature! I think we need to wean off oil and gas and onto better and more efficient power systems but am glad I do not equate natural products as "evil".
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Plastics can be synthesized from CO2, water and a ton of energy, so they could be renewable if we wanted them to be. The process would even be carbon negative, since plastics take a long time to decompose and release their embodied carbon.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

nopeNopeNooope 4y ago

This is bullshit, the amount of oil and gas used for garments and plastics is a pittance compared to what we burn to move those products around. Nobody is saying oil and gas is evil. What is evil is profiting and pretending we don't need to change how we fuel our economy. What we build our durable goods out of isn't in question.

hh3k0 4y ago
Clothes that use synthetic fibers are shedding microplastics whenever you wear them, wash them, etc. You shouldn't wear such garbage if you care about the environment (and your health).
- spaetzleesser 4y ago
  What’s the alternative?
  - Melatonic 4y ago
    You can also minimize the shedding by using special bags while washing ( I forget the name ) if you want to use them for specific outdoor pursuits. But for everyday use there are lots of natural fibers that are great alternatives to polyester, nylon, etc. Cotton of course is well known, linen is generally much better environmental wise, and if properly taken care of (and if the animals are cared for correctly) there are many animals fibers that have really great performance properties. Merino wool being the most well known of course and Alpaca being the biggest up and comer (basically has all of upsides of merino and none of the downsides)
karaterobot 4y ago
It's not exactly bullshit, 10% of the global carbon emission is a result of the fashion industry[1], which isn't a pittance. But you are totally right that transportation is a much bigger share. The North Face's own contribution is probably a pittance. This is one of those situations where I don't like anybody on either side, and just hope that the argument doesn't get too annoying before it goes away. I don't think oil and gas is evil (because it is amoral) but the industry certainly is destructive, both in its externalized costs, and in how it tries to prevent people from fixing the mess we've made together in order to sustain itself. The fashion industry is similar in that it depends on weaknesses in human nature, and both would happily ride our civilization into the grave rather than abandon their business models. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/fast-fashion-environmental-impact-pollution-emissions-waste-water-2019-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/fast-fashion-environmental-i...

baisq 4y ago

I find amusing to use "Oil & Gas" as if it was some kind of demonic entity.

bitwize 4y ago
Oil and gas as a demonic entity... so, Hexxus from FernGully?
DoingIsLearning 4y ago
Actually I do have to agree on the demonic entity assesment. Oil and Gas conglomerates actively colluded in fabricating fake science to descredit the impact of GHG. As well as withheld information from the public and governments on their own data showing severe projections on climate change. [0] [1] This is short term profit at the cost of _literally_ Human Survival. Considering that Climate Calamity will be the major threat to Human life in large chunks of the planet by the time my children come of age, it looks pretty demonic in my book. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil_climate_change_controversy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil_climate_change_co... [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/shell-grappled-with-climate-change-20-years-ago-documents-show/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/shell-grappled-wi...

chomp 4y ago

Update headline to include (2021) Also, a couple things: 1.) North Face really really cares about image and marketing. In my opinion, there's nothing special to their product- it's all image. So, blocking O&G companies from branding their gear is somewhat understandable. 2.) They do use some eco-friendly material, and (supposedly, maybe) will have more responsibly sourced material coming by 2025 (not sure if they committed to this before, or after this debacle). 3.) It's funny to me that his best defense of oil and gas is "you live in an oil and gas society, so, gotcha!"

flavius29663 4y ago
We all need oil and gas to sustain our modern lifestyle. To pretend otherwise it's just hypocritical. Blaming the oil companies for allowing us a comfortable and easy life is so shortsighted - we don't want to live like Tarzan...
- rhn_mk1 4y ago
  Nobody's blaming them for having gotten us easy lives. What they are blamed for is not leaving the scene when we need to move on.
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    They'll leave the scene when we move on.
    - rhn_mk1 4y ago
      ...while actively trying to prevent it by gaslighting the rest of us about the urgency https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-climate-change-almost-40-years-ago/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-...
- bozhark 4y ago
  More like… holding the oil and gas companies responsible for knowingly trying to hide their negative environmental/social/economic impact of their industry… since the 1960’s

boringg 4y ago

This guy misses the point - classic pro Oil & Gas rant on how they are the boogie man. The point is that we don't want to be beholden to oil and gas going forward. Look at all the campaigns to put out misinformation about oil and gas by the Oil Majors (since the 1980s). Yes Oil and Gas is part of the economy and all of its various products, but let's not make it the lynchpin and let's decarbonize our energy systems. Every time these guys (oil executives or proxies) open their mouths you really see how much they don't understand the landscape outside of oil and gas industry. Also remember this a polished message, I'd be curious to see their backroom conversations...

slowmovintarget 4y ago
How does one make a plastic jacket without plastic? Delivery and shipping aside, the basic raw materials for plastics come from the petrochemical industry colloquially referred to as "Oil & Gas." Personally, I'd be in favor of banning plastics from garments as they are the single largest source of microplastic pollution and non-recyclable consumer goods on the market. But if you make plastic garments, you're part of the precipitate.
- admax88qqq 4y ago
  Maybe you dont make a plastic jacket without plastic. Buy maybe you don't burn tons of oil in cars and planes you can maken a shit ton of plastic jackets without spewing nearly as many greenhouse gasses. Decarbonize doesn't mean we have to use 0 oil, it means we have to use way less.
- droopyEyelids 4y ago
  What is odd to me, is that they call out North Face instead of Patagonia- Patagonia is working hard to ensure their clothing is ONLY plastic, trying to completely remove all natural fibers and materials from their offerings. North face still has plenty of cotton and wool options.
  - neon_electro 4y ago
    Source for this? I've typically been happy to buy pre-owned Patagonia clothes from their own pre-owned store, but I hadn't heard this news.

owlninja 4y ago

I was a bit confused, this article provided some more details https://www.outsidebusinessjournal.com/issues/what-happens-when-an-oil-company-publicly-accuses-the-north-face-of-hypocrisy/ https://www.outsidebusinessjournal.com/issues/what-happens-w... From July 2021 FYI

visviva 4y ago
Thanks. This would've been a much better submission, IMO.
- warning26 4y ago
  Agreed -- YouTube rants have no place on HN, IMO.

mikkergp 4y ago

I was never a fan of their clothing, but I was really turned off when they sued a teenager for creating a parody brand "The South Butt".

bozhark 4y ago
What in the fuck judge would allow that in their court
- karatinversion 4y ago
  A lawsuit is just a tweet with a filing fee
  - munk-a 4y ago
    Only if you allow districts to exist that refuse to adapt anti-slapp laws. There is a solution to this problem, we've just failed to adopt it. Edit: Just to clarify - I'm not advocating for removing state autonomy when it comes to legal legislation - but I am advocating for adopting some national anti-slapp rules.
    - leephillips 4y ago
      How can a national rule not infringe upon state autonomy?
      - munk-a 4y ago
        A national rule can be targeted for this specific domain and not rob states of their other powers.
        leephillips 4y ago
        It would seem to be a tautology that a rule about A will not infringe on state autonomy about B. But what if the state prefers to retain its autonomy about A?

gamblor956 4y ago

North Face uses rayon, which is derived from bamboo, not oil and gas... But it's not like the oil and gas industry hasn't been caught lying a billion times before. (Note that their less premium offerings available at Target and Walmart might use fibers derived from oil and gas. Their premium stuff does not.)

whimsicalism 4y ago
North Face certainly uses polyester, this is not in question.
jakear 4y ago
Their most expensive item [1] is 49% nylon and 33% polyester body, with some components being 90% polyester. The only recycled part is the lining, which is conveniently the least dense. Not sure what's more premium than that. [1] https://www.thenorthface.com/shop/mens-jackets-vests/mens-expedition-mcmurdo-parka-nf0a5gfa?variationId=JK3 https://www.thenorthface.com/shop/mens-jackets-vests/mens-ex...
didymospl 4y ago
Maybe USA is different but in EU their outdoor clothes are made predominantly of nylon and polyester. I don't think rayon have the properties needed for outdoor jackets. Obviously, this doesn't mean the man from the video is right, but it's for plenty other reasons.

bsmith89 4y ago

I think my gripe with the argument in this video (which is, nonetheless, interesting from an offensive marketing perspective) is that equating making clothes out of petroleum products with "being a friend of the oil and gas industry" is disingenuous. For the most part, the environmentally disastrous emissions come from _burning_ fossil fuels; I'm guessing cheap plastics are just a side-effect of a massive energy market, and not a major driver of the industry.

nrjames 4y ago
That used to be the case, but the industry is incorporating more cheap plastics to harden against future projected fossil fuel revenue loss. On that topic, this PBS Frontline episode is a good resource: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/plastic-wars/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/plastic-wars/
- RC_ITR 4y ago
  If we turn every ounce of oil in the ground into plastic that's a problem, but a way more manageable one than burning even half that amount in our atmosphere.
  - condour75 4y ago
    Hell, you could look at it as carbon sequestration.
  - schwartzworld 4y ago
    Given that we're already seeing plastics inside human blood and fetuses, I don't think we could really say how manageable that state would be
    - scoofy 4y ago
      I think this is a fair concern, but if we're being honest, we know the real, present, and accelerating danger from putting more GHGs into the atmosphere. We are currently unaware of the negative impacts of traces of plastics in our bodies. It makes a ton of sense to put the literal fire out now, and worry about what the effects of the plastics are when there is evidence of serious concern.

wiz21c 4y ago

I've enjoyed watching for 3.5 minutes a man that will soon transform himself into a dinosaur...

chad_strategic 4y ago

Just think all the energy and time we wasted with this article that is confusing and that Steve Jobs / Anderson Cooper want be.

1970-01-01 4y ago

A private jet terminal is unnecessary for a clothing business. North Face, they got you on that. https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2019/11/26/vf-corp-centennial-airport-hangar.html https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2019/11/26/vf-corp-c...

rsync 4y ago
"VF Corp. has purchased land at Centennial Airport where it plans to build a hangar for its fleet of private jets used by executives who travel the globe for business." ... a little something I like to refer to as: Ends disguised as means.
- soared 4y ago
  Even more odd, because oracle and a few other companies fly a ton of jets out of an airport 10 minutes away from there in interlocken.

kenbolton 4y ago

Wool ftw! I consider my primary work to be in outdoor leadership. I've built my wardrobe around sustainable wool. Gore is working toward more sustainable waterproof/breathable materials, and the manufacturer I buy GoreTex from, Kokatat, is committed to healthy watersheds because that is where their customers play. When your playground is the rivers and oceans, you play downstream from nearly everyone.

tweetle_beetle 4y ago
> Gore is working toward more sustainable waterproof/breathable materials They are moving very slowly and it's hard to see it as more than greenwashing. Modern Gore-Tex is effectively unrepairable (anything more than a small neat cut) and therefore unsustainable. These days it's 2 or 3 layers of plastic glued/bonded together, with extra glue/bonding along the seams, extra glue/bonding on fasteners and maybe even extra glue/bonding to other fabrics. It uses techniques requiring sophisticated manufacturing processes, which cannot be replicated at home, and Gore makes it difficult to buy Gore-Tex by the metre as a consumer even if you wanted to. Don't even think about sourcing specialist zippers if they break. Yes, the outer face fabric may have a limited recycled content which companies like to focus on, but, like paper manufacturing, performance materials generally require some virgin material. It is also all soaked in chemicals to prevent it actually needing to be Gore-Tex, only recently has there been a modest effort to use alternatives which don't shed fluorocarbons in use - even though they have been available for some time. It works fairly well, but that performance relies a great deal on it not being eco-friendly.
- kenbolton 4y ago
  The manufacturer downstream from Gore has a great repair service, but we've repaired GoreTex in the field with a GoreTex patch adhered with AquaSeal for larger tears and a drop of AquaSeal for pin-holes. I agree that they could be doing a better job, as can we all.

alex_young 4y ago

Isn't calling this "greenwashing" quite a bit of editorialization? This title is more flame-bait than the content it links to and that's saying something.

rsync 4y ago

God it just kills me to hear otherwise educated, well spoken people pronounce "et cetera" with a 'K'.

SonOfLilit 4y ago
Like you would pronounce it in Latin? I mean, it's wrong, but in the too-educated direction, not the not-educated-enough direction.
- rsync 4y ago
  You misunderstand me - I am saying he pronounces the 't' in 'et' like a K.
- sideshowb 4y ago
  The fact that the c in tacit is usually pronounced softly is tacit knowledge
hn_go_brrrrr 4y ago
Many classicists believe the Latin C sounded like our K. So you get words pronounced like Kaesar, ketera, kivis, etc.
- slobiwan 4y ago
  Pretty sure the comment was about the video narrator pronouncing it "ek setera", not "et setera" or even "et ketera" (I counted 3 instances). And I agree, just like people who say "supposably[1]", it exposes somebody who isn't well read. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qsJzB74N7o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qsJzB74N7o
  - smegsicle 4y ago
    or "ex etera"
ptomato 4y ago
that's an (historical latin pronunciation is a subject of some debate) acceptable latin pronunciation of it.

seydor 4y ago

my north faces have lasted more than decade and are easier to clean. other than that i do not understand anything from this video

photochemsyn 4y ago

North Face is a classic example of neoliberalism run amok. They used to manufacture their products in a Berkeley factory, but that was shut down in 1993 as neoliberal trade deals opened up access to low-wage factories around the world. The current list of manufacturing sites is fairly broad, but Vietnam and Bangladesh appear to be among the main ones. Notably, when you hear about the crisis of homelessness around the SF Bay Area, keep in mind that in the 1980s (when there were not nearly as many homeless, like 90% less by population ratio), there were a lot more garment and electronics manufacturing jobs in the region. https://themenhero.com/where-is-the-north-face-made/ https://themenhero.com/where-is-the-north-face-made/ Since sales are probably not that high in Vietnam/Bangaladesh etc., this requires a robust global shipping system to get product from factory to consumer (probably mostly in North America, Europe, Japan, but sales location isn't reported much). It's a safe bet that cost-of-shipping increases are more than made up for by cost-of-manufacturing decreases due to outsourcing. As far as the raw materials going into nylon/polyester, yes those are petrochemicals but could be replaced by aerochemicals, i.e. direct capture of CO2 and conversion to butadiene, ethylene, etc. for feeding into synthetic fabric production. Such tech is currently expensive, but if all the oil & gas & coal on the planet suddenly vanished, we could still make nylon. On the whole oil & gas issue, this article/podcast lays it out nicely. Apparently it's all about having consistent brand image management: https://supplychainnow.com/north-face-dilemma-670/ https://supplychainnow.com/north-face-dilemma-670/

Melatonic 4y ago
Not sure I would say it is specifically a case of neoliberalism but just a great example of what happens when a smaller/medium sized company with a single founder with a vision grows and gets taken over by the classic capitalistic fat cats. You can see it in many larger companies product lines and timelines - they start out and build a good reputation and give a shit about their employees and then eventually grow to a point where they just have an endless drivel of product lines and production lines. Have not heard much about aerochemicals but that certainly sounds interesting (although probably insanely expensive). Personally I think the realistic approach is to focus (currently) on making textiles that are extra durable for better longevity so that even if the original production method is not perfect we can at least keep using it indefinitely or get it resold on the used market.

jerlam 4y ago

Is there any evidence that North Face's actions "backfired" other than the creation of this video and the loss of a microscopic corporate customer? This also seems similar to the actions of one of North Face's customers, Patagonia, when they stopped doing co-branding with some VC firms: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19558512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19558512 (2019).

lkrubner 4y ago

Two things: My parents were given, as a gift, a wool blanket in 1963, and it was on our beds when we were children, and I have it on my bed now. It’s durability is like something out of a science-fiction story, an incredible substance that can take decades of use without showing signs of wear. It is not frayed or ugly; it is still in good shape. Im almost baffled how it endured. Good wool is amazing. In 1989 my mom bought me my first real backpack, a NorthFace. Over the next 32 years, I travelled all over with it. I hiked the Appalachian Trail with it. I hiked mountains in Colorado with it. I took it on bike trips. I took it all over Europe. The quality was amazing. Finally, the zippers gave out. I gave up on it last year. I bought another NorthFace backpack. The quality is terrible. After 1 year it is showing signs of wear. Everything about it seems cheap and badly done. I am very disappointed to see the shift in quality in NorthFace over those 32 years.

jdkee 4y ago
Decontenting products and offshoring is how American manufacturers maintained margins over the past thirty years.
rapnie 4y ago
> Finally, the zippers gave out. I gave up on it last year. Pity that you ditched it. I recently had zipper replaced at a clothing repair shop on my quality old trusted winter jacket.. thought it would be very expensive, but it was not. As for your experience with the new North Face jacket. That is my experience too. Brands that were known for quality are now 'just brands' and that's what you pay for: the logo.
- jhbadger 4y ago
  Exactly. Like when L.L. Bean stuff was actually made in Maine it was incredible. They've gotten rid of their "lifetime replacement guarantee" supposedly because of people abusing it by buying old boots and things in yard sales and returning them for new ones, but the fact is they couldn't really do it any more because while their stuff used to last forever, now it doesn't.

Melatonic 4y ago

As someone who considers themselves a huge environmentalist this video is unfortunately sort of bullshit. 1. He claims that the entire "outdoor" movement was created by Oil and Gas which I think we know is total BS. Humans have been exploring the outdoors long before oil and gas - hunting - exploring - etc. 2. While TNF does definitely produce a ton of crap (and is really not my favourite brand in general) there is just currently no better substitute performance wise for petroleum based products in many areas. You can make a lot out of natural materials but a nice and lightweight waterproof jacket is not really one of them. 3. The original founder of the TNF (now deceased) bought tons and tons of land throughout Chile for years that people thought was for malicious ends. It turned out to be, however, that they were instead intending to donate the land to create even more natural parks (which Chile already has a ton of). Not a small amount of land here - we are talking quite a bit. The "outdoor industry" in general has pretty much all of the problems he lists and tons of companies don't do shit in reality to help the environment. Would I prefer for all of these companies to stop making so much VOLUME of product and instead focus on quality and longevity and for consumers to focus more on buying used and second hand products? Of course. But this doesn't seem intended to really focus on that at all and is just a hit piece specifically on TNF. Who is paying for this advertisement and what is their motivation? Why not focus instead on the problems of the outdoor industry in general?

exabrial 4y ago
This whole campaign is stupid. Textiles make like (googles fervently) .8% (probably) to 5% (probably not) of all oil consumption. And this doesn't end up in the atmosphere, it's solidified. The highlight of this video: > TNF has PROPANE fireplaces!!!! It literally took more energy to stream this video on the internet than it did to heat a lounge with propane. Calm down now there buddy. > but OCEAN PLASTICS!!!! Ok, this is a good one. First, how often are you washing your fancy TNF jacket? Probably once a year, because you don't want to ruin the water proofing treatment. The EPA, when they're not busy buying $5k office chairs, is actually doing good work updating requirements for Wastewater Treatment plant guidelines to tackle microplastics, but this again, misses major sources. Actually looking at the quoted sources for most of the graphs only count developed countries. They miss third world areas where rivers are used for trash disposal. This is an enormous amount of effort targeting a minor abuse of plastics. To the above poster's point: if anything, they should be ragging on them to make their products repairable. I still subscribe to "buy once, buy quality", which is why I don't own anything TNF. I'm on my second zipper on my 5 year old Columbia, which I bought specifically because it looked like it could be easily replaced.

julienchastang 4y ago

His arguments are straw man in nature. I think we all agree that fossil fuels have led to orders of magnitude increases in standard of living, at least for most humans. That is not really in dispute. But it is now time to move on to new sources of energy that are not so destructive for the planet and biodiversity; renewables, nuclear, and ultimately fusion. We need to look forward, not back.

xbar 4y ago