7 ms·

So now I'm supposed to spend my time proving that I'm mainstream enough to be acceptable, because my existence makes me guilty by association? This is the "Blac

So now I'm supposed to spend my time proving that I'm mainstream enough to be acceptable, because my existence makes me guilty by association? This is the "Black people should have no issue proving they aren't criminals" argument. Also, transgender people aren't a movement. We're people.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
zmgsabst 4y ago
> Also, transgender people aren't a movement. We're people. I’m not saying it’s fair or right… But transgender people are a minority whose voice has been appropriated by a political movement to force their radical agenda under euphemisms like “inclusion”. I’m not saying that you need to be outspoken about it — but if the only exposure most people have is that extremist view from TV, they will associate you with that due to how humans work. > "Black people should have no issue proving they aren't criminals" The equivalent would be black people debouncing the neo-racism of Democrats under euphemisms like “equity” and publicly denouncing nonsense done in their name, like de-policing. Again, I’m not saying it’s fair or right… but I’d tell a black Democrat who was upset about being associated with that idiocy the same thing: You’re tacitly letting your identity be used to push dumb policies — and you’ll be associated until you stand up and say “no, this doesn’t represent me”.
- arkaniad 4y ago
  Radical agenda like... being able to safely receive healthcare? Being safe from violence? Being able to grow into a happy and successful human being? Ah, but yes, you're right, that's preposterous.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - rocef 4y ago
- banannaise 4y ago
  You're using a thin facade of decorum to push the idea that the oppression of minorities is their own fault, with the strong implication that you have nothing to do with it because that's just the way the world works. How am I personally responsible by association for the actions of others, while you aren't? And again, am I supposed to be out here actively looking for people and views to disavow? Do I have to do this in front of everyone I meet, so then they'll be sure I'm one of the good ones and they can treat me like a normal person?
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    > How am I personally responsible by association for the actions of others, while you aren't? Whites not associated with racism are expected to denounce it. Men not associated with misogyny are expected to denounce it. I’m not holding double-standards, just acknowledging that humans work based on heuristics. > Do I have to do this in front of everyone I meet, so then they'll be sure I'm one of the good ones and they can treat me like a normal person? You don’t have to do it at all, but yelling at people because they’re human and their brains react to repeated exposure by finding patterns isn’t going to lead to the outcome you want. So if you don’t like being associated with that kind of behavior — you probably want to do it some time, in some way. That perception won’t change until there’s enough people out there denouncing the misappropriation of their identity by politicians to make it clear that they dont represent that group.
    - mikkergp 4y ago
      Racism and Misogyny are actual forces in this country. Minority activists don't actually have any political power. Besides, who are you expecting to do the denouncing and what are they supposed to denounce? Before I started this comment was I supposed to do a quick google search and see if there were any fringe activists saying something to denounce? What's the time scale I have to cover before I can reply to your comment. A week? A month? What if I already denounced it in another thread, do I have to do a recap of everything I've denounced in every thread? I'm not calling you racist, No one asked you to denounce racism or misogyny, so why are you bringing it up? > there’s enough people out there denouncing the misappropriation of their identity by politicians to make it clear that they don't represent that group This is laughably unquantifiable and political forces ensure that even if this was happening you wouldn't know about it.
- Semiapies 4y ago
  "I’m not saying it’s fair or right…" Good, because concern trolling like this is pretty shitty, and definitely not fair or right. Certainly not intellectually honest. You attack someone repeatedly for supposedly not standing up against "dumb policies" and "extremist" positions, without your daring to name what you think those are. After all, if you did that, you might have to defend your stance against criticism instead of attacking someone for not preventing the entire Democratic Party from committing unspecified wrongs of "inclusion".
  - SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
    It's not really a matter of "daring". Most online platforms don't permit dissent on transgender issues. If someone attempted to directly argue that they don't think transgenderism is real, they wouldn't face criticism or engage in a robust debate, they'd simply get their comment deleted. (If you turn on showdead you can see that's happened in this very thread, although admittedly the guy was a bit rude about it.)
    - banannaise 4y ago
      The fact that transgender people exist is quite settled from a scientific perspective. Most reasonable platforms will not put up with people asserting that trans people are either mentally ill, clout-chasing, or victims of abuse, in the same way that most reasonable platforms will not put up with arguments that Black people are a criminal race because <insert debunked science here>. Dissent along those lines, no matter how politely framed, is simply an attempt to launder bigotry into "debate".
      - Banana699 4y ago
        banannaise 4y ago
        This is a willful misinterpretation of the very realistic idea that it is possible to make me disappear from public existence by legally forcing me into the closet.
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  > I’d tell It's really at this step where things start to take a wrong turn. I truly believe you're acting in good faith, so please take this as a gentle suggestion. Rather than telling trans/black/etc people anything, pause and really listen. We are already told how to do everything else in our lives, being told how to stand up for ourselves and how to fight for our rights feels like another example of the same pattern. A better question is, "How can we help?" or "What do you need?"
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    - kelseyfrog 4y ago
      This is a really good example that demonstrates what happens when a trans person stands up for themselves. Thank you for providing it so that others can witness that the careful steps we take aren't enough to prevent the abuse we experience.
    - banannaise 4y ago
      The real racism is when people calmly explain to you that the position you are arguing is extremely insensitive to minority groups. ????
Banana699 4y ago
Like it or not, you are beholden to what your group says and does in public. The group name you identify with strongly biases anybody meeting you into modeling you as the most visible people of your group. > transgender people aren't a movement. We're people. Every movement is ultimately a group of people with a purpose.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

zmgsabst 4y ago

> Also, transgender people aren't a movement. We're people. I’m not saying it’s fair or right… But transgender people are a minority whose voice has been appropriated by a political movement to force their radical agenda under euphemisms like “inclusion”. I’m not saying that you need to be outspoken about it — but if the only exposure most people have is that extremist view from TV, they will associate you with that due to how humans work. > "Black people should have no issue proving they aren't criminals" The equivalent would be black people debouncing the neo-racism of Democrats under euphemisms like “equity” and publicly denouncing nonsense done in their name, like de-policing. Again, I’m not saying it’s fair or right… but I’d tell a black Democrat who was upset about being associated with that idiocy the same thing: You’re tacitly letting your identity be used to push dumb policies — and you’ll be associated until you stand up and say “no, this doesn’t represent me”.

arkaniad 4y ago
Radical agenda like... being able to safely receive healthcare? Being safe from violence? Being able to grow into a happy and successful human being? Ah, but yes, you're right, that's preposterous.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- rocef 4y ago
banannaise 4y ago
You're using a thin facade of decorum to push the idea that the oppression of minorities is their own fault, with the strong implication that you have nothing to do with it because that's just the way the world works. How am I personally responsible by association for the actions of others, while you aren't? And again, am I supposed to be out here actively looking for people and views to disavow? Do I have to do this in front of everyone I meet, so then they'll be sure I'm one of the good ones and they can treat me like a normal person?
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  > How am I personally responsible by association for the actions of others, while you aren't? Whites not associated with racism are expected to denounce it. Men not associated with misogyny are expected to denounce it. I’m not holding double-standards, just acknowledging that humans work based on heuristics. > Do I have to do this in front of everyone I meet, so then they'll be sure I'm one of the good ones and they can treat me like a normal person? You don’t have to do it at all, but yelling at people because they’re human and their brains react to repeated exposure by finding patterns isn’t going to lead to the outcome you want. So if you don’t like being associated with that kind of behavior — you probably want to do it some time, in some way. That perception won’t change until there’s enough people out there denouncing the misappropriation of their identity by politicians to make it clear that they dont represent that group.
  - mikkergp 4y ago
    Racism and Misogyny are actual forces in this country. Minority activists don't actually have any political power. Besides, who are you expecting to do the denouncing and what are they supposed to denounce? Before I started this comment was I supposed to do a quick google search and see if there were any fringe activists saying something to denounce? What's the time scale I have to cover before I can reply to your comment. A week? A month? What if I already denounced it in another thread, do I have to do a recap of everything I've denounced in every thread? I'm not calling you racist, No one asked you to denounce racism or misogyny, so why are you bringing it up? > there’s enough people out there denouncing the misappropriation of their identity by politicians to make it clear that they don't represent that group This is laughably unquantifiable and political forces ensure that even if this was happening you wouldn't know about it.
Semiapies 4y ago
"I’m not saying it’s fair or right…" Good, because concern trolling like this is pretty shitty, and definitely not fair or right. Certainly not intellectually honest. You attack someone repeatedly for supposedly not standing up against "dumb policies" and "extremist" positions, without your daring to name what you think those are. After all, if you did that, you might have to defend your stance against criticism instead of attacking someone for not preventing the entire Democratic Party from committing unspecified wrongs of "inclusion".
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
  It's not really a matter of "daring". Most online platforms don't permit dissent on transgender issues. If someone attempted to directly argue that they don't think transgenderism is real, they wouldn't face criticism or engage in a robust debate, they'd simply get their comment deleted. (If you turn on showdead you can see that's happened in this very thread, although admittedly the guy was a bit rude about it.)
  - banannaise 4y ago
    The fact that transgender people exist is quite settled from a scientific perspective. Most reasonable platforms will not put up with people asserting that trans people are either mentally ill, clout-chasing, or victims of abuse, in the same way that most reasonable platforms will not put up with arguments that Black people are a criminal race because <insert debunked science here>. Dissent along those lines, no matter how politely framed, is simply an attempt to launder bigotry into "debate".
    - Banana699 4y ago
      - banannaise 4y ago
        This is a willful misinterpretation of the very realistic idea that it is possible to make me disappear from public existence by legally forcing me into the closet.
kelseyfrog 4y ago
> I’d tell It's really at this step where things start to take a wrong turn. I truly believe you're acting in good faith, so please take this as a gentle suggestion. Rather than telling trans/black/etc people anything, pause and really listen. We are already told how to do everything else in our lives, being told how to stand up for ourselves and how to fight for our rights feels like another example of the same pattern. A better question is, "How can we help?" or "What do you need?"
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    This is a really good example that demonstrates what happens when a trans person stands up for themselves. Thank you for providing it so that others can witness that the careful steps we take aren't enough to prevent the abuse we experience.
  - banannaise 4y ago
    The real racism is when people calmly explain to you that the position you are arguing is extremely insensitive to minority groups. ????

Banana699 4y ago

Like it or not, you are beholden to what your group says and does in public. The group name you identify with strongly biases anybody meeting you into modeling you as the most visible people of your group. > transgender people aren't a movement. We're people. Every movement is ultimately a group of people with a purpose.