5 ms·

>The russian side expected to take the entire country in a matter of days. Did it? How do you know? Wasn't all Russian media censored in the West?

by aa-jv 4y ago

pjc50 4y ago
Not before the war.
jskzocorow 4y ago
We're inferring their intentions from what we know they did. There could be different explanations to what happened, of course. Maybe they were planning to go drive towards Kiev, have the Ukrainians destroy their supply lines, and then retreat, in which case it's working exactly as planned.
- aa-jv 4y ago
  "Inferring" is not the same as knowing and is as good as useless, propaganda-wise. You cannot overtly ignore/censor the position of 'the other side', while demanding that your subsequent inference about their intentions is canonical. Either you know what the other side is thinking, because they told you - or you simply don't. You've come to a conclusion that supports the propaganda you've been fed - but it could as easily be stated that Russias' move towards Kiev was a feint (not unheard of in Russian military doctrine) while it built up the resources needed to keep the battles going in the East. Which is what happened.
  - taffit 4y ago
    Sorry, but no: Calling the advance to Kyiv (fascist Russia clearly wanted to take the capital by storm), the slaughtering and war crimes in the suburbs and the hasty retreat with thousands of fallen Russian orcs a "feint" is Russian propaganda and way beyond reality. You can deny reality, still it happens. Reality doesn't care about fascist (paid?) propaganda. Back to the story: Many of the things that the former ambassador mentions are also confirmed by many of the non-Kreml-paid media. Interesting article, thank you!
    - aa-jv 4y ago
      > Russia clearly wanted to take the capital Did they state as much in official state communications, or are you inventing this position on the basis of a prejudiced narrative? Remember, you are only being allowed to see one side of this conflict by your states own information-control apparatus. To assume you know the truth in such conditions is fallacious.
      - taskforcegemini 4y ago
        > Remember, you are only being allowed to see one side of this conflict by your states own information-control apparatus. To assume you know the truth in such conditions is fallacious. does hn look like state media to you? people on here have a tendency to choose their own sources of information. I tried some RT to see the russian side of things but it is an eerily written tabloid devoid of facts and information but full of storytelling and opinion pushing. The commenters are not bringing anything to the table either. If you have a better source, feel free to share. That being said, considering what the kreml has published it is pretty obvious they wanted to take kyiv
  - sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
    > You've come to a conclusion that supports the propaganda you've been fed - but it could as easily be stated that Russias' move towards Kiev was a feint (not unheard of in Russian military doctrine) while it built up the resources needed to keep the battles going in the East. > Which is what happened. That's hilarious.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Not a chance.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
NicoJuicy 4y ago
You can access Russian media and you can see Ukranian casualties too in many places. Russian state propaganda is mostly blocked, but not hard/illegal to circumvent.
- aa-jv 4y ago
  Got a link that supports the claim that Russia thought it would be done in days?
  - Dma54rhs 4y ago
    What do you mean? It was a regular topic on Russian state tv shows (like the Solovyov one). Now they changed to tune claiming they fight the best military in Europe. I think a lot of the west was certain Ukraine goes to chaos and capitulation as well. If you don't care what TV says then the logistical nightmare Russia is having is a good proof they didn't prepare to wage war for very long. They might be corrupt but not retarded.
    - sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
      The person you're responding to also said this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31338468 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31338468 I'm afraid you're speaking to a committed ideologue. He made up his mind that everything Russia does is on purpose and a great victory.
      - aa-jv 4y ago
        Actually you are proving my point that the proclivity to infer - basically, make shit up - is contagious in conditions of mass censorship and hysteria. If the Russian state has made official proclamations to support the theories being presented here, it should be quite easy to refer to them. Anything else is just agitprop. You need to learn to recognize when you are actively participating in agitprop, clearly.
        4y ago

>The russian side expected to take the entire country in a matter of days. Did it? How do you know? Wasn't all Russian media censored in the West?

by aa-jv 4y ago

>The russian side expected to take the entire country in a matter of days. Did it? How do you know? Wasn't all Russian media censored in the West?

pjc50 4y ago

Not before the war.

jskzocorow 4y ago

We're inferring their intentions from what we know they did. There could be different explanations to what happened, of course. Maybe they were planning to go drive towards Kiev, have the Ukrainians destroy their supply lines, and then retreat, in which case it's working exactly as planned.

aa-jv 4y ago
"Inferring" is not the same as knowing and is as good as useless, propaganda-wise. You cannot overtly ignore/censor the position of 'the other side', while demanding that your subsequent inference about their intentions is canonical. Either you know what the other side is thinking, because they told you - or you simply don't. You've come to a conclusion that supports the propaganda you've been fed - but it could as easily be stated that Russias' move towards Kiev was a feint (not unheard of in Russian military doctrine) while it built up the resources needed to keep the battles going in the East. Which is what happened.
- taffit 4y ago
  Sorry, but no: Calling the advance to Kyiv (fascist Russia clearly wanted to take the capital by storm), the slaughtering and war crimes in the suburbs and the hasty retreat with thousands of fallen Russian orcs a "feint" is Russian propaganda and way beyond reality. You can deny reality, still it happens. Reality doesn't care about fascist (paid?) propaganda. Back to the story: Many of the things that the former ambassador mentions are also confirmed by many of the non-Kreml-paid media. Interesting article, thank you!
  - aa-jv 4y ago
    > Russia clearly wanted to take the capital Did they state as much in official state communications, or are you inventing this position on the basis of a prejudiced narrative? Remember, you are only being allowed to see one side of this conflict by your states own information-control apparatus. To assume you know the truth in such conditions is fallacious.
    - taskforcegemini 4y ago
      > Remember, you are only being allowed to see one side of this conflict by your states own information-control apparatus. To assume you know the truth in such conditions is fallacious. does hn look like state media to you? people on here have a tendency to choose their own sources of information. I tried some RT to see the russian side of things but it is an eerily written tabloid devoid of facts and information but full of storytelling and opinion pushing. The commenters are not bringing anything to the table either. If you have a better source, feel free to share. That being said, considering what the kreml has published it is pretty obvious they wanted to take kyiv
- sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
  > You've come to a conclusion that supports the propaganda you've been fed - but it could as easily be stated that Russias' move towards Kiev was a feint (not unheard of in Russian military doctrine) while it built up the resources needed to keep the battles going in the East. > Which is what happened. That's hilarious.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Not a chance.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

NicoJuicy 4y ago

You can access Russian media and you can see Ukranian casualties too in many places. Russian state propaganda is mostly blocked, but not hard/illegal to circumvent.

aa-jv 4y ago
Got a link that supports the claim that Russia thought it would be done in days?
- Dma54rhs 4y ago
  What do you mean? It was a regular topic on Russian state tv shows (like the Solovyov one). Now they changed to tune claiming they fight the best military in Europe. I think a lot of the west was certain Ukraine goes to chaos and capitulation as well. If you don't care what TV says then the logistical nightmare Russia is having is a good proof they didn't prepare to wage war for very long. They might be corrupt but not retarded.
  - sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
    The person you're responding to also said this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31338468 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31338468 I'm afraid you're speaking to a committed ideologue. He made up his mind that everything Russia does is on purpose and a great victory.
    - aa-jv 4y ago
      Actually you are proving my point that the proclivity to infer - basically, make shit up - is contagious in conditions of mass censorship and hysteria. If the Russian state has made official proclamations to support the theories being presented here, it should be quite easy to refer to them. Anything else is just agitprop. You need to learn to recognize when you are actively participating in agitprop, clearly.
      - 4y ago