6 ms·

For the record I am pro-gay marriage, but your example is BS. The baker in your example was willing to bake them a cake. They were never denied a cake. What the

For the record I am pro-gay marriage, but your example is BS. The baker in your example was willing to bake them a cake. They were never denied a cake. What the baker was not willing to do was bake them the exact cake that they wanted, claiming that fancier cakes were artistic expression and not the same as the standard priced on their menu cakes, and that forcing them to create an art piece cake they didn't want to make was the equivalent of compelled speech. It would be the equivalent of going to a restaurant and asking for something non-standard and off menu (say change a meal to vegan or gluten free), being denied that, and then claiming the restaurant violated your rights. Or going to an artist who sells t-shirts with their standard art and saying they denied me service when they wouldn't let me commission a custom piece that they didn't like to content of.

slg 4y ago
>What the baker was not willing to do was bake them the exact cake that they wanted, claiming that fancier cakes were artistic expression and not the same as the standard priced on their menu cakes, and that forcing them to create an art piece cake they didn't want to make was the equivalent of compelled speech This is just semantics of a legal argument. It is not some universal truth that ordering off menu puts any additional ethical strain on someone. If the baker would make those customizations for a straight couple and not a gay couple then the civil rights of the gay couple are being infringed.
- a123b456c 4y ago
  Honest question: which civil rights were infringed?
  - alar44 4y ago
    The right to be a troglodyte, I'm guessing.
    - ROTMetro 4y ago
      And comment is why we need the ACLU in it's old form. Dude, do you not see no one is arguing for being pieces of crap, but that rights can easily be curtailed long term from an initial starting point of everyone agreeing we shouldn't be pieces of crap. You know, the saying 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'.
      - alar44 4y ago
        Discrimination isn't free speech, end of story.
        ohCh6zos 4y ago
        You're right, it's freedom of association.
        ROTMetro 4y ago
        No crap. Which is why we are discussing the boundaries of rights in the context of an organization that's purpose is to ensure that those boundaries don't get pushed to the point of infringing on other rights in either direction. In a free society we need someone willing to stand up for the unpopular side. I support gay marriage. I feel like a piece of crap in this discussion because the person I am defending disgusts me and is garbage. But I feel like there is a larger discussion that should be had. If political speech is banned in the 6 months before an election do I have free speech? If I am forced to do work I don't want when I am self employed and affluent enough to choose, do do I have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?
  - RyanCavanaugh 4y ago
    You have a civil right to participate in normal society, such as the purchase of everyday goods and services like cakes. This is what it looks like when that right is not enforced via mandates of business owners: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book
  - slg 4y ago
    Not being discriminated against based of their sexual orientation.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  Come on man, if I list services, and am willing to provide you those services, how did I deny you service? If I am not willing to go above and beyond to make you special creative accommodations that is not a violation of your rights. If my religion does not allow me to do drugs, and you want me to cover a cake with marijuana flowers instead of the standard roses, I am required to do that? Am I denying you service when I say I will sell you a cake with standard flowers but I'm not spending 16 hours custom making marijuana icing flowers? Putting the standard icing on a cake is a service and should not be denied, but 16 hours making something custom is art and I should have a choice if I want to put that creative energy into what you are asking for. Service was not denied, commissioning a custom work of artistry was. No rights were infringed.
  - RyanCavanaugh 4y ago
    You're conflating discrimination on the basis of the product being created vs on the basis of whom the product is being sold to. The cake being commissioned was not materially different from any of the other cakes the baker made. What was materially different was who he was selling it to.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - ROTMetro 4y ago
      I am a computer geek and suck at words, but I thought that is what I said. If you provide a standard service, you can't deny that service to people. If you have something different, say a wedding cake that takes tens of hours and is a one off custom work of art, that is different. I do custom software development. What is the line for what work I am compelled to take on versus what projects I can choose not to do? Would I be required to take on making a grindr clone if my only objections was religious?
      - RyanCavanaugh 4y ago
        You don't have to take bad faith arguments at face value. When the baker says that his wedding cakes are a custom work of art tailored to each client, he's bullshitting you. He simply wants to discriminate against gay people. It really is that simple. There is no material difference between drawing flowers on a cake for a gay wedding and drawing flowers on a cake for a straight wedding, the same as there being no material difference between drawing flowers on a cake for an interracial wedding and a non-interracial wedding. When people make up false pretenses to justify their discrimination, your job as a rational human being is to identify it as such, not be a sucker. I absolutely guarantee that if a straight couple had came in, commissioned a regular wedding cake, and then once the cake was done said "Oops we're not gonna buy it, can you sell it to our gay friends' wedding instead?", the baker would not have sold them the cake at that point, because again, it's about who he's selling it to, not what he's making.
karpierz 4y ago
> It would be the equivalent of going to a restaurant and asking for something non-standard and off menu (say change a meal to vegan or gluten free), being denied that, and then claiming the restaurant violated your rights. It would be the equivalent of going to a restaurant and asking for something non-standard and off menu (say change a meal to vegan or gluten free), being denied that, noting that they seem only seem to be denying black patrons off menu orders, and then claiming the restaurant violated your rights.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  And? Ethnic restaurants do this all the time with same ethnicity patrons and not me as a white guy. Shoot, they often even have a seperate menu for the right ethnic group that I never even get to see.
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    Wow, keep voting me down and ignore that this is a real world example that happens all the time. Making accommodations for off menu items at ethnic restaurants is often determined by race but it isn't being done out of racism.
  - atonse 4y ago
    They won’t deny it to you if you wanted it. I’ve been to restaurants like this, like one where The husband and wife owners were Vietnamese and Cambodian, and the wife used to cook Cambodian dishes for people that wanted it, and had a Cambodian menu. It wasn’t anything sinister. It just wasn’t something they advertised but found it to be a novel additional income. It was a Vietnamese restaurant cuz people seek that cuisine out more than Khmer food. But if even I asked for the Khmer menu they’d hand it to me, even though I’m a brown clearly Indian dude (who grew up with a few Cambodian friends)
    - ROTMetro 4y ago
      They sure do deny it, it's happened to me may times. Or they allow it once or twice, but then later on they told me I can't keep ordering it because it's too much work and not on the normal menu. I'm not saying it's sinister. Personally, I think it's reasonable. You have a standard business that you provide. And maybe those recipes are more generic to appeal to a larger customer base, but when someone from the home country comes in wanting the taste of home, you make them that special because you want to out of hospitality, and separate from your standard business. Is that illegal? Should you have to make that for everyone? Some places will accommodate you, but some won't. Maybe because they only make a limited amount of those items, or because they are more labour intensive, or because they include more expensive exotically sourced ingredients and aren't a westernized recipe, or as happened with an ex-girlfriend, because it's a pretty acquired taste, and you should believe them when they say you aren't going to like that, they aren't just being hipstery. As long as they provide me and everyone else their standard service, I think it's legitimate. But under what is being talked about here it would be considered an illegal racist practice.
hexane360 4y ago
This discussion has been rehashed over and over again, but you're wrong on the facts of this case. The owner claimed that he would bake any cake, but the evidence shows he refused before they discussed any styling or even what the cake was. He would sell them cupcakes or prebaked items, but wouldn't bake any cake, arguing it was compelled speech. The problem is that in the absence of asking for a cake which specifically mentions gay people, the owner's line of argumentation works equally well for refusing to cook a burger for black people at a diner. By being a business owner in a community, you give up certain civil liberties because you have increased power to infringe upon the civil rights of others. Your analogies all fail because they consider situations where the customer asks the seller for a different, non-standard product. But that didn't happen; they were refused before any products were discussed.
- rayiner 4y ago
  > By being a business owner in a community, you give up certain civil liberties because you have increased power to infringe upon the civil rights of others. Big [citation needed] here. The Constitution doesn’t say you give up your rights by being a business owner and participating in the economy.
  - three_seagrass 4y ago
    Constitution doesn't matter when it's federal law. Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964: > Outlawed discrimination based on race, color, religion, or national origin in hotels, motels, restaurants, theaters, and all other public accommodations engaged in interstate commerce; exempted private clubs without defining the term "private". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964#Title_II%E2%80%94public_accommodations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964#Title...
    - barry-cotter 4y ago
      > Constitution doesn't matter when it's federal law. Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964: The US constitution overrides other US laws, not the other way around.

slg 4y ago

>What the baker was not willing to do was bake them the exact cake that they wanted, claiming that fancier cakes were artistic expression and not the same as the standard priced on their menu cakes, and that forcing them to create an art piece cake they didn't want to make was the equivalent of compelled speech This is just semantics of a legal argument. It is not some universal truth that ordering off menu puts any additional ethical strain on someone. If the baker would make those customizations for a straight couple and not a gay couple then the civil rights of the gay couple are being infringed.

a123b456c 4y ago
Honest question: which civil rights were infringed?
- alar44 4y ago
  The right to be a troglodyte, I'm guessing.
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    And comment is why we need the ACLU in it's old form. Dude, do you not see no one is arguing for being pieces of crap, but that rights can easily be curtailed long term from an initial starting point of everyone agreeing we shouldn't be pieces of crap. You know, the saying 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'.
    - alar44 4y ago
      Discrimination isn't free speech, end of story.
      - ohCh6zos 4y ago
        You're right, it's freedom of association.
      - ROTMetro 4y ago
        No crap. Which is why we are discussing the boundaries of rights in the context of an organization that's purpose is to ensure that those boundaries don't get pushed to the point of infringing on other rights in either direction. In a free society we need someone willing to stand up for the unpopular side. I support gay marriage. I feel like a piece of crap in this discussion because the person I am defending disgusts me and is garbage. But I feel like there is a larger discussion that should be had. If political speech is banned in the 6 months before an election do I have free speech? If I am forced to do work I don't want when I am self employed and affluent enough to choose, do do I have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?
- RyanCavanaugh 4y ago
  You have a civil right to participate in normal society, such as the purchase of everyday goods and services like cakes. This is what it looks like when that right is not enforced via mandates of business owners: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book
- slg 4y ago
  Not being discriminated against based of their sexual orientation.
ROTMetro 4y ago
Come on man, if I list services, and am willing to provide you those services, how did I deny you service? If I am not willing to go above and beyond to make you special creative accommodations that is not a violation of your rights. If my religion does not allow me to do drugs, and you want me to cover a cake with marijuana flowers instead of the standard roses, I am required to do that? Am I denying you service when I say I will sell you a cake with standard flowers but I'm not spending 16 hours custom making marijuana icing flowers? Putting the standard icing on a cake is a service and should not be denied, but 16 hours making something custom is art and I should have a choice if I want to put that creative energy into what you are asking for. Service was not denied, commissioning a custom work of artistry was. No rights were infringed.
- RyanCavanaugh 4y ago
  You're conflating discrimination on the basis of the product being created vs on the basis of whom the product is being sold to. The cake being commissioned was not materially different from any of the other cakes the baker made. What was materially different was who he was selling it to.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    I am a computer geek and suck at words, but I thought that is what I said. If you provide a standard service, you can't deny that service to people. If you have something different, say a wedding cake that takes tens of hours and is a one off custom work of art, that is different. I do custom software development. What is the line for what work I am compelled to take on versus what projects I can choose not to do? Would I be required to take on making a grindr clone if my only objections was religious?
    - RyanCavanaugh 4y ago
      You don't have to take bad faith arguments at face value. When the baker says that his wedding cakes are a custom work of art tailored to each client, he's bullshitting you. He simply wants to discriminate against gay people. It really is that simple. There is no material difference between drawing flowers on a cake for a gay wedding and drawing flowers on a cake for a straight wedding, the same as there being no material difference between drawing flowers on a cake for an interracial wedding and a non-interracial wedding. When people make up false pretenses to justify their discrimination, your job as a rational human being is to identify it as such, not be a sucker. I absolutely guarantee that if a straight couple had came in, commissioned a regular wedding cake, and then once the cake was done said "Oops we're not gonna buy it, can you sell it to our gay friends' wedding instead?", the baker would not have sold them the cake at that point, because again, it's about who he's selling it to, not what he's making.

karpierz 4y ago

> It would be the equivalent of going to a restaurant and asking for something non-standard and off menu (say change a meal to vegan or gluten free), being denied that, and then claiming the restaurant violated your rights. It would be the equivalent of going to a restaurant and asking for something non-standard and off menu (say change a meal to vegan or gluten free), being denied that, noting that they seem only seem to be denying black patrons off menu orders, and then claiming the restaurant violated your rights.

ROTMetro 4y ago
And? Ethnic restaurants do this all the time with same ethnicity patrons and not me as a white guy. Shoot, they often even have a seperate menu for the right ethnic group that I never even get to see.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  Wow, keep voting me down and ignore that this is a real world example that happens all the time. Making accommodations for off menu items at ethnic restaurants is often determined by race but it isn't being done out of racism.
- atonse 4y ago
  They won’t deny it to you if you wanted it. I’ve been to restaurants like this, like one where The husband and wife owners were Vietnamese and Cambodian, and the wife used to cook Cambodian dishes for people that wanted it, and had a Cambodian menu. It wasn’t anything sinister. It just wasn’t something they advertised but found it to be a novel additional income. It was a Vietnamese restaurant cuz people seek that cuisine out more than Khmer food. But if even I asked for the Khmer menu they’d hand it to me, even though I’m a brown clearly Indian dude (who grew up with a few Cambodian friends)
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    They sure do deny it, it's happened to me may times. Or they allow it once or twice, but then later on they told me I can't keep ordering it because it's too much work and not on the normal menu. I'm not saying it's sinister. Personally, I think it's reasonable. You have a standard business that you provide. And maybe those recipes are more generic to appeal to a larger customer base, but when someone from the home country comes in wanting the taste of home, you make them that special because you want to out of hospitality, and separate from your standard business. Is that illegal? Should you have to make that for everyone? Some places will accommodate you, but some won't. Maybe because they only make a limited amount of those items, or because they are more labour intensive, or because they include more expensive exotically sourced ingredients and aren't a westernized recipe, or as happened with an ex-girlfriend, because it's a pretty acquired taste, and you should believe them when they say you aren't going to like that, they aren't just being hipstery. As long as they provide me and everyone else their standard service, I think it's legitimate. But under what is being talked about here it would be considered an illegal racist practice.

hexane360 4y ago

This discussion has been rehashed over and over again, but you're wrong on the facts of this case. The owner claimed that he would bake any cake, but the evidence shows he refused before they discussed any styling or even what the cake was. He would sell them cupcakes or prebaked items, but wouldn't bake any cake, arguing it was compelled speech. The problem is that in the absence of asking for a cake which specifically mentions gay people, the owner's line of argumentation works equally well for refusing to cook a burger for black people at a diner. By being a business owner in a community, you give up certain civil liberties because you have increased power to infringe upon the civil rights of others. Your analogies all fail because they consider situations where the customer asks the seller for a different, non-standard product. But that didn't happen; they were refused before any products were discussed.

rayiner 4y ago
> By being a business owner in a community, you give up certain civil liberties because you have increased power to infringe upon the civil rights of others. Big [citation needed] here. The Constitution doesn’t say you give up your rights by being a business owner and participating in the economy.
- three_seagrass 4y ago
  Constitution doesn't matter when it's federal law. Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964: > Outlawed discrimination based on race, color, religion, or national origin in hotels, motels, restaurants, theaters, and all other public accommodations engaged in interstate commerce; exempted private clubs without defining the term "private". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964#Title_II%E2%80%94public_accommodations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964#Title...
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    > Constitution doesn't matter when it's federal law. Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964: The US constitution overrides other US laws, not the other way around.