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These are citizens private healthcare information. You shouldn't be able to foia this anymore than my medicare records. Citizens don't lose their right to priva

These are citizens private healthcare information. You shouldn't be able to foia this anymore than my medicare records. Citizens don't lose their right to privacy because they're in prison. Goodness.

Clubber 4y ago
If you read his link, it states the request is for counts, not individual names. 1. A complete and accurate count of inmates who identify as transgender (gender identity differs from sex identified at birth) in the custody of the Washington Department of Corrections [please break this information down by location] 2. Number of inmates that have been transferred from a men’s facility to a women’s facility since January 01, 2021 3. Total number of male persons who identify as female, non-binary, or any other gender identity that are currently housed in a women’s facility 4. Number of inmates who have transferred from a women’s facility to a men’s facility from January 01, 2021 to March 18, 2021 5. Number of female persons who identify as male, non-binary or any other gender identity that are currently housed in a men’s facility
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  Yes, and in the case of small N (which, like, is the case here), those are problematic to disclose!
  - giantg2 4y ago
    How so? You'd have to figure out the N in a population of hundreds of thousands (the state's prison population) without any other variables to go on.
    - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
      It breaks down the N by location, which... what defines a location here? Is it a state? Is it a single prison? For a small N, narrow location is definitely a de-anonymization factor.
      - giantg2 4y ago
        There's no mention of any narrow locations. The numbers are at the state level per the request in the article.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    How would knowing "1 Transwoman is currently housed in a female prison on the territory of Washington state" in any way risk causing harm to that transwoman, or help you identify her in any way?
    - prepend 4y ago
      It doesn’t. I think GP is confusing small cell counts in micro data (a real problem) with small numbers in aggregate data (sometimes a problem). In this case, just a count and prison is not a privacy issue as someone would have to already know the individual is trans to identify them. And that’s the only information contained in the data release.
- fzeroracer 4y ago
  It should be incredibly obvious that this information would make it very easy to identify the individuals in question (especially with #1).
  - Clubber 4y ago
    I would think you could identify them by looking at their booking photos as well. Here's a link to a public inmate search for Washington state. https://www.doc.wa.gov/information/search.htm https://www.doc.wa.gov/information/search.htm
    - colpabar 4y ago
      quick somebody call the ACLU!
- barelysapient 4y ago
  For some the issue so sensitive that even a broad and impersonal question is hugely offensive. And negative intent is immediately assumed of the questioner.
- vmception 4y ago
  this FOIA request arbitrarily mixes sex and gender, which actually does show a lack of understanding towards trans and non-binary people (as well as willingness to understand, materialized as fear. fear is the phobia part of transphobia) so even though GP tried to be accurate and progressive-enough in their admonishment of the ACLU to find a way to have a rational way of expressing and discussing their fear, the people involved have made a malformed FOIA request and are expressing their calcified opinion conflating sex and gender identity.
  - Clubber 4y ago
    What does that have to do with denying a FOIA request? Sorry, you used the wrong pronouns, you are denied FOIA? Intent of the FOIA request is irrelevant, otherwise the government could deny FOIA for people who want to make the government look bad, which honestly is probably the case here.
    - vmception 4y ago
      its not about a pronoun, so looks like you're also conflating concepts no pronouns need to be added or used to correct the malformed FOIA request it conflates sex and gender, I said what I said, its accurate that it is doing that. > Total number of male persons who identify as female, non-binary, or any other gender identity The request would be "Total number of male persons that identify as women". The sex doesn't change, the gender does. The FOIA request would say invalid, or zero, and be accurate, regarding the ones identifying as "female". The "other gender identify" may cover it, but not necessarily. Males identifying as men wouldn't have been transferred. So "other than what"? "Female" is not a gender, unless we are accepting that any arbitrary identification is valid, but would that be grounds for transfer? But yes that can just say "males transferred", because they remain male. Its a conditional argument because legal circumstances follow conditional logic. So if it seems obtuse, oh well, thats how it works.
      - tsimionescu 4y ago
        But that's not what happened. Instead, the state refused to fill the FOIA request at all, and the ACLU sued to help them. If this had been maliciously complied with, the whole discussion would have been different.
prepend 4y ago
Aggregate counts are not private healthcare information when released in a way that limits reidentification. The Privacy Act (and HIPAA) allows for deidentified data to be shared broadly. Anyway, prisoner gender is not healthcare data, it’s administrative data that describes prisoner population demographics. I would agree with you if the request was for individual medical information on treatment or procedures or something.
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  > Aggregate counts are not private healthcare information when released in a way that limits reidentification. The Privacy Act (and HIPAA) allows for deidentified data to be shared broadly. Possibly, but you're almost assuredly looking at a sample of N=10 or fewer, so the answer would be "*" anyway.
  - prepend 4y ago
    Not if it’s just a count. Because, even with a low count it wouldn’t be used to identify someone. Let’s say there were 3 transgender people in the state, or even a facility. If they reveal that number it doesn’t identify an individual or divulge any confidential information. The low counts have to be suppressed when coupled with other data or linked to other data. If you included count by age group, then you would need to change from a low count to a suppressed marker. For example 3 transgenders in the 80+ age group might reveal their identity because there aren’t many 80+ inmates. But just having a small count with no other info is not really a cause to remove the value.
deathanatos 4y ago
It sounded like aggregate numbers were being requested, not names. (Though, the link is only one side of the story.) Assuming that is correct (that it is merely an aggregate count), does that not maintain medical privacy, while allowing public access to the information on how the state is running prisons?
lesstenseflow 4y ago
I don't think your sex is "private healthcare information." How would sharing the total number of males in various facilities violate an individuals privacy rights? (sidebar: if you think you retain your right to privacy in prison... all I can say is you've clearly never been to prison :) Regarding the right to privacy, what's your take on the privacy rights of the (female) women who are being physically forced to house & sleep in a cell with males?
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  > Regarding the right to privacy, what's your take on the privacy rights of the (female) women who are being physically forced to house & sleep in a cell with males? Any argument here about privacy is entirely independent of sex and gender. Prison is dehumanizing, address that. Don't be a transphobe. Edit: There's a bunch of mistaken comments here assuming that this will protect women prisoners in some capacity. That's totally wrong! Women in prison are sexually assaulted, raped, and even impregnated by men all the time and have been for years. Those men are guards[0]. And this happens at a vastly higher rate per capita and overall than any assault by trans inmates. Anyone here with a legitimate interest in protecting women in prison would be attempting to address that harm, because it is far more dire for numerous reasons. [0]: https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/the-rape-club-womens-prison-in-norcal-fostered-culture-of-abuse-inmate-say/ https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/the-rape-club-womens-priso...
  - lesstenseflow 4y ago
    Is a woman a transphobe for not wanting to share a jail cell with a person who has a penis? I think most people would consider safeguarding female prisoners from males common sense. I think you should take a moment to consider the (female) women in this situation. Imagine you're a woman 100% at the mercy of the state, and the state locks you in a cell with a male person. Put yourself in their shoes, and try to extend some empathy to them.
    - joshuamorton 4y ago
      I never made any comment about women in prison. I have empathy to anyone in prison. Like I said, its deeply inhumane. I think people in prison should be protected from other people in prison if they are dangerous, and I think prisons fail to do that today. I don't accept your presumption that having a penis makes someone inherently more dangerous. Again: if your goal is to protect women in prison, the best way to do that is to advocate for reform that makes prisons safer for everyone. Not by being transphobic, which you're doing instead.
giantg2 4y ago
They're asking for aggregate data, not personal data.
cluedos 4y ago
No, these are important questions regarding policy around sex-based rights. The FOIA requestor did not ask for any private information, merely for the number of the people.

These are citizens private healthcare information. You shouldn't be able to foia this anymore than my medicare records. Citizens don't lose their right to privacy because they're in prison. Goodness.

Clubber 4y ago

If you read his link, it states the request is for counts, not individual names. 1. A complete and accurate count of inmates who identify as transgender (gender identity differs from sex identified at birth) in the custody of the Washington Department of Corrections [please break this information down by location] 2. Number of inmates that have been transferred from a men’s facility to a women’s facility since January 01, 2021 3. Total number of male persons who identify as female, non-binary, or any other gender identity that are currently housed in a women’s facility 4. Number of inmates who have transferred from a women’s facility to a men’s facility from January 01, 2021 to March 18, 2021 5. Number of female persons who identify as male, non-binary or any other gender identity that are currently housed in a men’s facility

joshuamorton 4y ago
Yes, and in the case of small N (which, like, is the case here), those are problematic to disclose!
- giantg2 4y ago
  How so? You'd have to figure out the N in a population of hundreds of thousands (the state's prison population) without any other variables to go on.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    It breaks down the N by location, which... what defines a location here? Is it a state? Is it a single prison? For a small N, narrow location is definitely a de-anonymization factor.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      There's no mention of any narrow locations. The numbers are at the state level per the request in the article.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  How would knowing "1 Transwoman is currently housed in a female prison on the territory of Washington state" in any way risk causing harm to that transwoman, or help you identify her in any way?
  - prepend 4y ago
    It doesn’t. I think GP is confusing small cell counts in micro data (a real problem) with small numbers in aggregate data (sometimes a problem). In this case, just a count and prison is not a privacy issue as someone would have to already know the individual is trans to identify them. And that’s the only information contained in the data release.
fzeroracer 4y ago
It should be incredibly obvious that this information would make it very easy to identify the individuals in question (especially with #1).
- Clubber 4y ago
  I would think you could identify them by looking at their booking photos as well. Here's a link to a public inmate search for Washington state. https://www.doc.wa.gov/information/search.htm https://www.doc.wa.gov/information/search.htm
  - colpabar 4y ago
    quick somebody call the ACLU!
barelysapient 4y ago
For some the issue so sensitive that even a broad and impersonal question is hugely offensive. And negative intent is immediately assumed of the questioner.
vmception 4y ago
this FOIA request arbitrarily mixes sex and gender, which actually does show a lack of understanding towards trans and non-binary people (as well as willingness to understand, materialized as fear. fear is the phobia part of transphobia) so even though GP tried to be accurate and progressive-enough in their admonishment of the ACLU to find a way to have a rational way of expressing and discussing their fear, the people involved have made a malformed FOIA request and are expressing their calcified opinion conflating sex and gender identity.
- Clubber 4y ago
  What does that have to do with denying a FOIA request? Sorry, you used the wrong pronouns, you are denied FOIA? Intent of the FOIA request is irrelevant, otherwise the government could deny FOIA for people who want to make the government look bad, which honestly is probably the case here.
  - vmception 4y ago
    its not about a pronoun, so looks like you're also conflating concepts no pronouns need to be added or used to correct the malformed FOIA request it conflates sex and gender, I said what I said, its accurate that it is doing that. > Total number of male persons who identify as female, non-binary, or any other gender identity The request would be "Total number of male persons that identify as women". The sex doesn't change, the gender does. The FOIA request would say invalid, or zero, and be accurate, regarding the ones identifying as "female". The "other gender identify" may cover it, but not necessarily. Males identifying as men wouldn't have been transferred. So "other than what"? "Female" is not a gender, unless we are accepting that any arbitrary identification is valid, but would that be grounds for transfer? But yes that can just say "males transferred", because they remain male. Its a conditional argument because legal circumstances follow conditional logic. So if it seems obtuse, oh well, thats how it works.
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      But that's not what happened. Instead, the state refused to fill the FOIA request at all, and the ACLU sued to help them. If this had been maliciously complied with, the whole discussion would have been different.

prepend 4y ago

Aggregate counts are not private healthcare information when released in a way that limits reidentification. The Privacy Act (and HIPAA) allows for deidentified data to be shared broadly. Anyway, prisoner gender is not healthcare data, it’s administrative data that describes prisoner population demographics. I would agree with you if the request was for individual medical information on treatment or procedures or something.

joshuamorton 4y ago
> Aggregate counts are not private healthcare information when released in a way that limits reidentification. The Privacy Act (and HIPAA) allows for deidentified data to be shared broadly. Possibly, but you're almost assuredly looking at a sample of N=10 or fewer, so the answer would be "*" anyway.
- prepend 4y ago
  Not if it’s just a count. Because, even with a low count it wouldn’t be used to identify someone. Let’s say there were 3 transgender people in the state, or even a facility. If they reveal that number it doesn’t identify an individual or divulge any confidential information. The low counts have to be suppressed when coupled with other data or linked to other data. If you included count by age group, then you would need to change from a low count to a suppressed marker. For example 3 transgenders in the 80+ age group might reveal their identity because there aren’t many 80+ inmates. But just having a small count with no other info is not really a cause to remove the value.

deathanatos 4y ago

It sounded like aggregate numbers were being requested, not names. (Though, the link is only one side of the story.) Assuming that is correct (that it is merely an aggregate count), does that not maintain medical privacy, while allowing public access to the information on how the state is running prisons?

lesstenseflow 4y ago

I don't think your sex is "private healthcare information." How would sharing the total number of males in various facilities violate an individuals privacy rights? (sidebar: if you think you retain your right to privacy in prison... all I can say is you've clearly never been to prison :) Regarding the right to privacy, what's your take on the privacy rights of the (female) women who are being physically forced to house & sleep in a cell with males?

joshuamorton 4y ago
> Regarding the right to privacy, what's your take on the privacy rights of the (female) women who are being physically forced to house & sleep in a cell with males? Any argument here about privacy is entirely independent of sex and gender. Prison is dehumanizing, address that. Don't be a transphobe. Edit: There's a bunch of mistaken comments here assuming that this will protect women prisoners in some capacity. That's totally wrong! Women in prison are sexually assaulted, raped, and even impregnated by men all the time and have been for years. Those men are guards[0]. And this happens at a vastly higher rate per capita and overall than any assault by trans inmates. Anyone here with a legitimate interest in protecting women in prison would be attempting to address that harm, because it is far more dire for numerous reasons. [0]: https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/the-rape-club-womens-prison-in-norcal-fostered-culture-of-abuse-inmate-say/ https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/the-rape-club-womens-priso...
- lesstenseflow 4y ago
  Is a woman a transphobe for not wanting to share a jail cell with a person who has a penis? I think most people would consider safeguarding female prisoners from males common sense. I think you should take a moment to consider the (female) women in this situation. Imagine you're a woman 100% at the mercy of the state, and the state locks you in a cell with a male person. Put yourself in their shoes, and try to extend some empathy to them.
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    I never made any comment about women in prison. I have empathy to anyone in prison. Like I said, its deeply inhumane. I think people in prison should be protected from other people in prison if they are dangerous, and I think prisons fail to do that today. I don't accept your presumption that having a penis makes someone inherently more dangerous. Again: if your goal is to protect women in prison, the best way to do that is to advocate for reform that makes prisons safer for everyone. Not by being transphobic, which you're doing instead.

giantg2 4y ago

They're asking for aggregate data, not personal data.

cluedos 4y ago

No, these are important questions regarding policy around sex-based rights. The FOIA requestor did not ask for any private information, merely for the number of the people.