4 ms·

I frequently see articles like this discussing these community explosions as self-evidently harmful patterns of behaviour. I've never seen an article like this

I frequently see articles like this discussing these community explosions as self-evidently harmful patterns of behaviour. I've never seen an article like this as a discussion of a certain amount of necessary pain, confusion, and difficulty while things get worked out. It seems obvious to me that untangling systemic problems and their legacies will always involve some clashing. Sooner started, sooner done.

Ambolia 4y ago
If you run an anti-harassment office and you get rid of harassment, you are out of a job and out of power. If you keep finding more and more harassment, you are set for life. Plus if you try to tone it down there's 50 juniors behind you with dubious degrees that will gladly denounce you for being too old fashioned and take your juicy position for themselves. I don't think getting more middle-managers will ever get this issues any better because it's in their interests to increase their power as much as possible, not solve anything.
robertlagrant 4y ago
They look a lot as though they're profiting from re-entangling as much as possible. This isn't automatically equivalent to reconciliation or equality, and it often looks like the complete opposite.
- fatbird 4y ago
  Agreed, but these are communities of interest, without governance of any kind. There's no one to police bad behaviour, to refocus on constructive efforts, to maintain an agenda or to call timeouts when it gets overheated. Given that, what's the alternative to a messy communal brawl that hopefully doesn't destroy the community? The author of the essay speaks about the ratchet dynamics as if it's obviously to be avoided; an alternative read is that his take is descriptive of what's actually the way that these things get worked out, sometimes for the better, sometimes not.
  - jimbokun 4y ago
    What are examples of things like this working out for the better?
    - fatbird 4y ago
      The various "racefail" episodes over the last decade in science fiction, for one. They were definitely as acrimonious and sprawling as the knitting blowup, but after several of them, they've settled down, no one's been cancelled, and the community seems healthier for it. As the article's author notes, the knitting community has mostly healed as well. My wife is a knitter so I've followed it more closely than others. Some prominent voices aren't so much anymore; others are more prominent. As the author notes, Nathan Taylor came back and made more money than before, covering his losses and then some. Contrast that to the "new athiest" collapse that led to two distinct communities. Whether that's for better or worse probably depends on perspective. It only seems bad if you feel a need for there to be a monolithic community. I think the split (which I also witnessed at the time) really did reveal a deep schism in the community, so I'm not sure it isn't better to be two factions divided.
      - barry-cotter 4y ago
        > The various "racefail" episodes over the last decade in science fiction, for one. They were definitely as acrimonious and sprawling as the knitting blowup, but after several of them, they've settled down, no one's been cancelled, and the community seems healthier for it. To describe the North American SF convention scene as healthier after casting out the right wing[1] and normalizing the use of censorship[2] seems a bit rich. [1] Sad Puppies and aftermath [2] Sensitivity readers and other freelance commissars
        fatbird 4y ago
        The scifi convention scene used to feature Marian Zimmer Bradley cruising for teenage boys, as a procurer for her husband Walter Breen, a convicted pedophile and member of NAMBLA. I'm not sure we want to pine for the return of those days.
rendall 4y ago
No. It's nothing of the kind. At best, it's racists projecting their discomfort onto other people, making others responsible for their own guilt. But more likely, it's sadistic bullies. A sadistic bully cannot say "Destroying a life gets me excited!" but they can say "I fight for social justice!"
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Ambolia 4y ago

If you run an anti-harassment office and you get rid of harassment, you are out of a job and out of power. If you keep finding more and more harassment, you are set for life. Plus if you try to tone it down there's 50 juniors behind you with dubious degrees that will gladly denounce you for being too old fashioned and take your juicy position for themselves. I don't think getting more middle-managers will ever get this issues any better because it's in their interests to increase their power as much as possible, not solve anything.

robertlagrant 4y ago

They look a lot as though they're profiting from re-entangling as much as possible. This isn't automatically equivalent to reconciliation or equality, and it often looks like the complete opposite.

fatbird 4y ago
Agreed, but these are communities of interest, without governance of any kind. There's no one to police bad behaviour, to refocus on constructive efforts, to maintain an agenda or to call timeouts when it gets overheated. Given that, what's the alternative to a messy communal brawl that hopefully doesn't destroy the community? The author of the essay speaks about the ratchet dynamics as if it's obviously to be avoided; an alternative read is that his take is descriptive of what's actually the way that these things get worked out, sometimes for the better, sometimes not.
- jimbokun 4y ago
  What are examples of things like this working out for the better?
  - fatbird 4y ago
    The various "racefail" episodes over the last decade in science fiction, for one. They were definitely as acrimonious and sprawling as the knitting blowup, but after several of them, they've settled down, no one's been cancelled, and the community seems healthier for it. As the article's author notes, the knitting community has mostly healed as well. My wife is a knitter so I've followed it more closely than others. Some prominent voices aren't so much anymore; others are more prominent. As the author notes, Nathan Taylor came back and made more money than before, covering his losses and then some. Contrast that to the "new athiest" collapse that led to two distinct communities. Whether that's for better or worse probably depends on perspective. It only seems bad if you feel a need for there to be a monolithic community. I think the split (which I also witnessed at the time) really did reveal a deep schism in the community, so I'm not sure it isn't better to be two factions divided.
    - barry-cotter 4y ago
      > The various "racefail" episodes over the last decade in science fiction, for one. They were definitely as acrimonious and sprawling as the knitting blowup, but after several of them, they've settled down, no one's been cancelled, and the community seems healthier for it. To describe the North American SF convention scene as healthier after casting out the right wing[1] and normalizing the use of censorship[2] seems a bit rich. [1] Sad Puppies and aftermath [2] Sensitivity readers and other freelance commissars
      - fatbird 4y ago
        The scifi convention scene used to feature Marian Zimmer Bradley cruising for teenage boys, as a procurer for her husband Walter Breen, a convicted pedophile and member of NAMBLA. I'm not sure we want to pine for the return of those days.

rendall 4y ago

No. It's nothing of the kind. At best, it's racists projecting their discomfort onto other people, making others responsible for their own guilt. But more likely, it's sadistic bullies. A sadistic bully cannot say "Destroying a life gets me excited!" but they can say "I fight for social justice!"

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]