5 ms·

Related to the topic, besides the energy argument and the ability to cycle system state, I'd argue the huge importance of being able to power things off for per

Related to the topic, besides the energy argument and the ability to cycle system state, I'd argue the huge importance of being able to power things off for personal freedom, especially for things with connectivity. We still have the power to shut off devices and largely the ability to block their connectivity (e.g. routing TV ads through a network filter). With 5G and future connectivity, it feels as there will be push towards not being able to block the network access of individual devices, such that a TV or fridge will just speak to its server directly via some XG/IoT network which the user does control, without any user ability to block this communication. After losing control over connectivity, it seems as power switches will be the next thing we'll start to lose control over, for engineering and ergonomic reasons, but also for control reasons. Such a shift may be further pushed by more ubiquitous and long-range wireless charging, if it gets to the point where devices such as our phones can be sufficiently charged simply by being inside buildings. Just thought I'd throw in my $0.02 vote for the ability to power off things.

throwaway049 4y ago
Great. Now I need to buy a faraday cage to fit my refrigerator.
- swader999 4y ago
  Think bigger. Do the whole house. There's paint you can get for this.
  - rocqua 4y ago
    Does that actually work for 5G? I believe that, in urban areas, you can even get cell reception from inside a microwave because a phone needs very little signal.
    - swader999 4y ago
      I can still get cell reception in my bedroom that has three coats of the paint with proper copper grounding running through it all. But it barely registers on my meter now whereas before it was 100x. I'm sensitive to emf and do sleep noticeably better now. I still turn my phone and wifi off at night. I'm about 400 metres from a cell tower. Rural so no 5g yet I think. Yeah I have the window film and metal window screens and metal fabric curtains too. Wasn't a trivial project.
      - cute_boi 4y ago
        Can you explicate more about emf sensitivity! Just asking because I have never heard such thing. And, yea caging entire house is probably arduous and costs fortune.
        swader999 4y ago
        Its just anecdotal, I definitely sleep better the further I'm away from cell phones, cell towers and pulsed wifi routers. I've got a meter and I've used emf shielding clothes prior to addressing my bedroom. Its pretty hard to do decent studies on it since its so prevalent. Prone to quackery and people making quick bucks on it too.
        Physkal 4y ago
        You should check out better call Saul, main character is a lawyer who has a brother who lives with debilitating emf sensitivity, he is the only one who believes him though. They go really in depth about it for like 2 seasons
        swader999 4y ago
        Am a fan. I can't imagine suffering it that bad. For me it's just a few bad nights in a row that wear me out if I'm not careful.
    - marcosdumay 4y ago
      > because a phone needs very little signal Isn't it because the microwave is shielded against a very specific frequency, that is much lower than the 5G one? So that the 5G frequency penetrates the shielding without much trouble? (I'm really not sure, that's my initial guess, but the questions are not rhetorical.)
      - rocqua 4y ago
        Microwaves are at 2.4Ghz. Normal 5G ranges from 800Mhz till about 5Ghz. That is about the same ballpark, and Faraday cages are not incredibly frequency sensitive devices.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    And coated windows. Sounds like the way forward. Does a smart fridge still work if you rip the modem and Wlan boards out?
    - falcolas 4y ago
      Having worked in a former alphabet agency building that did have a faraday cage built into it, don’t worry too much about the windows. They weren’t a big enough hole to allow connections even in the middle of the city. Even standing at one with your cell phone was iffy.
      - djhn 4y ago
        But that's exactly what an alphabet agency employee would say!
  - brewdad 4y ago
    It rains 9 months a year here. Much of the US gets quite cold or hot for a significant part of the year. I really don't want to step outside to use my phone. WFH means I need to leave it on my porch in order to receive work calls, I guess.
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      Go old school - get a landline and one of those analogue rotary dial phones. The most secure phone there is.
mdp2021 4y ago
> With 5G and future connectivity, it feels as there will be push towards not being able to block the network access of individual devices, such that a TV or fridge will just speak to its server directly via some XG/IoT network which the user does control, without any user ability to block this communication How does one ensure that a product is built this way, to avoid it? I understood that a number of current 5G capable devices - e.g. telephones - can be disconnected the usual way (a button in the (quick)settings that toggles the connection).
- pveierland 4y ago
  Yes, for a telephone currently it is simple, both as it is necessary for the user to be able to disable the 5G functionality, for legacy and usability reasons. However for a device such as a TV, once it is sold with a network plan arranged by the manufacturer, there doesn't remain much of a point to allow the user to normally control whether this connection is active. For a while, an option would remain to disable or configure such an option, but over time it seems likely that the user would no longer be able to control this directly. It gets even easier for devices such as a smart lightbulb or a smart toaster - devices for which there wouldn't be any direct user interface. Once these communicate via wireless wider-area networks, the trend seems to be clear.
- davchana 4y ago
  True. My car came with ATT sim installed. It uses that to remote start via App, and to tell me the location, miles, other data in app. Also, to show me directions on its display screen. There is no way for a user to switch off that data connection (not that I want it, its free of cost, and it helped me few times).
  - mdp2021 4y ago
    I hope it can be disabled by the manufacturer upon request, like the E-Call system (microphone+GPS+radio device that should trigger an emergency call in case of actioned airbags).
    - 4y ago
bluesquared 4y ago
In a somewhat similar manner, my CPAP has a 4G modem that's a huge double-edged sword (for Americans only, you can see where this is going...). On one hand, it is nice to have an app that shows my stats, and my doctor can also remotely access how my therapy is going. On the other hand, it also phones home to the manufacturer & my insurance. When I don't hit my usage target for a specific time period, insurance stops paying for it and I have to personally pay out of pocket. So now you add the stress of not only complying with sleeping with an uncomfortable apparatus on your face but also if you don't keep it on enough (I take it off unconsciously in my sleep) you start paying thru the nose for it. Vicious cycle...
- te_chris 4y ago
  Jesus Christ that's dystopian.
  - ars 4y ago
    Not really. The device belongs to the insurance company and they're only willing to pay for it if it's actually being used. They are quite expensive machines, and they don't want people having them in their house, and not actually using them (CPAP has a very low patient compliance rate). And that's why they have tracking built-in. You're perfectly able to buy the machine yourself without insurance and then you don't have to turn on the modem. And also after you've used it for a while they give it to you and then you can turn off the modem.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      IMO it's a misuse of the technology. Controlled remote access was a good idea for doctors to see how therapy was working and adjust when necessary. I'd argue that newer APAP machines are so good at self-adjusting that it's less clear that remote access is necessary. And using it for insurance purposes should never have been permitted to begin with. Price it into the premium and skip the dystopian monitoring part. Personally, I just bought my machine outright. Yeah, it was close to a thousand bucks. But it's been going strong for years, so I'm happy with the investment. It has never been allowed to connect back to resmed.
everforward 4y ago
> With 5G and future connectivity, it feels as there will be push towards not being able to block the network access of individual devices, such that a TV or fridge will just speak to its server directly via some XG/IoT network which the user does control, without any user ability to block this communication. Amazon Sidewalk [1] is pretty much already there (assuming uptake is high enough, and I believe it's opt-out, so it probably is). From what I recall, the bandwidth is low, but that didn't seem to be a technical requirement but a political one to prevent leeching so much bandwidth the user notices. I think you're right, though. Usage is going to proliferate until laws reign it in, or someone develops an "electromagnetic radiation firewall" that allows fine-grained control over physical signals. The only other option I can think of is a soldering iron, but that's not terribly feasible. I'll take a soldering iron to a $40 part, but I'm not going to risk frying a nice new refrigerator or other expensive appliance. 1. https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=21328123011 https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=213281...
Nav_Panel 4y ago
Great part about TVs is you can just... unplug them.
- antifa 4y ago
  Then everytime you want to watch something, your "smart" TV will make you wait for it to check and download new updates (mostly advertisements).
jodrellblank 4y ago
Cars already do this kind of comms; Teslas are in permanent communication with head office, and I think the Volkswagen ID3 electric will be as well. Charging by harvesting ambient signals is a thing without needing ubiquitous dedicated charging stations, for very low power uses: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=electronics+charging+from+ambient+radio+signals https://duckduckgo.com/?q=electronics+charging+from+ambient+... It won't be many years until the bluebottle fly which came in the window, round the room and off into your house, is indistinguishable from a camera drone from the census bureau, your insurance company, your nosey neighbour. And then many more years until Vernor Vinge's "smart dust". Check out the size of the cameras on the Tobii 3 eye-tracking glasses, for example: https://www.tobiipro.com/imagevault/publishedmedia/71ru67v90neisp3o862s/Tobii-Pro-Glasses3-components-information.jpg https://www.tobiipro.com/imagevault/publishedmedia/71ru67v90...

throwaway049 4y ago

Great. Now I need to buy a faraday cage to fit my refrigerator.

swader999 4y ago
Think bigger. Do the whole house. There's paint you can get for this.
- rocqua 4y ago
  Does that actually work for 5G? I believe that, in urban areas, you can even get cell reception from inside a microwave because a phone needs very little signal.
  - swader999 4y ago
    I can still get cell reception in my bedroom that has three coats of the paint with proper copper grounding running through it all. But it barely registers on my meter now whereas before it was 100x. I'm sensitive to emf and do sleep noticeably better now. I still turn my phone and wifi off at night. I'm about 400 metres from a cell tower. Rural so no 5g yet I think. Yeah I have the window film and metal window screens and metal fabric curtains too. Wasn't a trivial project.
    - cute_boi 4y ago
      Can you explicate more about emf sensitivity! Just asking because I have never heard such thing. And, yea caging entire house is probably arduous and costs fortune.
      - swader999 4y ago
        Its just anecdotal, I definitely sleep better the further I'm away from cell phones, cell towers and pulsed wifi routers. I've got a meter and I've used emf shielding clothes prior to addressing my bedroom. Its pretty hard to do decent studies on it since its so prevalent. Prone to quackery and people making quick bucks on it too.
        Physkal 4y ago
        You should check out better call Saul, main character is a lawyer who has a brother who lives with debilitating emf sensitivity, he is the only one who believes him though. They go really in depth about it for like 2 seasons
        swader999 4y ago
        Am a fan. I can't imagine suffering it that bad. For me it's just a few bad nights in a row that wear me out if I'm not careful.
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    > because a phone needs very little signal Isn't it because the microwave is shielded against a very specific frequency, that is much lower than the 5G one? So that the 5G frequency penetrates the shielding without much trouble? (I'm really not sure, that's my initial guess, but the questions are not rhetorical.)
    - rocqua 4y ago
      Microwaves are at 2.4Ghz. Normal 5G ranges from 800Mhz till about 5Ghz. That is about the same ballpark, and Faraday cages are not incredibly frequency sensitive devices.
- hef19898 4y ago
  And coated windows. Sounds like the way forward. Does a smart fridge still work if you rip the modem and Wlan boards out?
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Having worked in a former alphabet agency building that did have a faraday cage built into it, don’t worry too much about the windows. They weren’t a big enough hole to allow connections even in the middle of the city. Even standing at one with your cell phone was iffy.
    - djhn 4y ago
      But that's exactly what an alphabet agency employee would say!
- brewdad 4y ago
  It rains 9 months a year here. Much of the US gets quite cold or hot for a significant part of the year. I really don't want to step outside to use my phone. WFH means I need to leave it on my porch in order to receive work calls, I guess.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    Go old school - get a landline and one of those analogue rotary dial phones. The most secure phone there is.

mdp2021 4y ago

pveierland 4y ago
Yes, for a telephone currently it is simple, both as it is necessary for the user to be able to disable the 5G functionality, for legacy and usability reasons. However for a device such as a TV, once it is sold with a network plan arranged by the manufacturer, there doesn't remain much of a point to allow the user to normally control whether this connection is active. For a while, an option would remain to disable or configure such an option, but over time it seems likely that the user would no longer be able to control this directly. It gets even easier for devices such as a smart lightbulb or a smart toaster - devices for which there wouldn't be any direct user interface. Once these communicate via wireless wider-area networks, the trend seems to be clear.
davchana 4y ago
True. My car came with ATT sim installed. It uses that to remote start via App, and to tell me the location, miles, other data in app. Also, to show me directions on its display screen. There is no way for a user to switch off that data connection (not that I want it, its free of cost, and it helped me few times).
- mdp2021 4y ago
  I hope it can be disabled by the manufacturer upon request, like the E-Call system (microphone+GPS+radio device that should trigger an emergency call in case of actioned airbags).
  - 4y ago

bluesquared 4y ago

In a somewhat similar manner, my CPAP has a 4G modem that's a huge double-edged sword (for Americans only, you can see where this is going...). On one hand, it is nice to have an app that shows my stats, and my doctor can also remotely access how my therapy is going. On the other hand, it also phones home to the manufacturer & my insurance. When I don't hit my usage target for a specific time period, insurance stops paying for it and I have to personally pay out of pocket. So now you add the stress of not only complying with sleeping with an uncomfortable apparatus on your face but also if you don't keep it on enough (I take it off unconsciously in my sleep) you start paying thru the nose for it. Vicious cycle...

te_chris 4y ago
Jesus Christ that's dystopian.
- ars 4y ago
  Not really. The device belongs to the insurance company and they're only willing to pay for it if it's actually being used. They are quite expensive machines, and they don't want people having them in their house, and not actually using them (CPAP has a very low patient compliance rate). And that's why they have tracking built-in. You're perfectly able to buy the machine yourself without insurance and then you don't have to turn on the modem. And also after you've used it for a while they give it to you and then you can turn off the modem.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    IMO it's a misuse of the technology. Controlled remote access was a good idea for doctors to see how therapy was working and adjust when necessary. I'd argue that newer APAP machines are so good at self-adjusting that it's less clear that remote access is necessary. And using it for insurance purposes should never have been permitted to begin with. Price it into the premium and skip the dystopian monitoring part. Personally, I just bought my machine outright. Yeah, it was close to a thousand bucks. But it's been going strong for years, so I'm happy with the investment. It has never been allowed to connect back to resmed.

everforward 4y ago

> With 5G and future connectivity, it feels as there will be push towards not being able to block the network access of individual devices, such that a TV or fridge will just speak to its server directly via some XG/IoT network which the user does control, without any user ability to block this communication. Amazon Sidewalk [1] is pretty much already there (assuming uptake is high enough, and I believe it's opt-out, so it probably is). From what I recall, the bandwidth is low, but that didn't seem to be a technical requirement but a political one to prevent leeching so much bandwidth the user notices. I think you're right, though. Usage is going to proliferate until laws reign it in, or someone develops an "electromagnetic radiation firewall" that allows fine-grained control over physical signals. The only other option I can think of is a soldering iron, but that's not terribly feasible. I'll take a soldering iron to a $40 part, but I'm not going to risk frying a nice new refrigerator or other expensive appliance. 1. https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=21328123011 https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=213281...

Nav_Panel 4y ago

Great part about TVs is you can just... unplug them.

antifa 4y ago
Then everytime you want to watch something, your "smart" TV will make you wait for it to check and download new updates (mostly advertisements).

jodrellblank 4y ago

Cars already do this kind of comms; Teslas are in permanent communication with head office, and I think the Volkswagen ID3 electric will be as well. Charging by harvesting ambient signals is a thing without needing ubiquitous dedicated charging stations, for very low power uses: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=electronics+charging+from+ambient+radio+signals https://duckduckgo.com/?q=electronics+charging+from+ambient+... It won't be many years until the bluebottle fly which came in the window, round the room and off into your house, is indistinguishable from a camera drone from the census bureau, your insurance company, your nosey neighbour. And then many more years until Vernor Vinge's "smart dust". Check out the size of the cameras on the Tobii 3 eye-tracking glasses, for example: https://www.tobiipro.com/imagevault/publishedmedia/71ru67v90neisp3o862s/Tobii-Pro-Glasses3-components-information.jpg https://www.tobiipro.com/imagevault/publishedmedia/71ru67v90...