7 ms·

I worked with a dba around 14 years ago, and then again in 2016. Those were both at corporate jobs. Other than that I've worked for small businesses, start ups

I worked with a dba around 14 years ago, and then again in 2016. Those were both at corporate jobs. Other than that I've worked for small businesses, start ups and as a contractor and that's all been fullstack. I think specialized roles make for better software and small teams trying to support the whole stack with their javascript bootcamp training are the biggest reason so much tech is absolute garbage these days. So I hope you find from other people that this is still a good role to pursue and that you do become a dba and work as a specialist with highly skilled teams and make the code world a better place.

29athrowaway 4y ago
Lots of people in the industry are in a race against time to make as much money as possible before they have to understand how things work.
- lliamander 4y ago
  The implications for the future of this industry, if what you say is true, are profound.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    Isn't it true for a lot of newish industries ? For instance we have the EV boom, and visibly a lot of companies are rushing in to try to make as much as they can without planning for what they would do if they become the next Toyota. But surely, some are planning a bit more ahead (or have a more long term viable approach, even if by accident), and time will tell who they are. My glass half full view would be that we don't need most companies to succeed, as long as the well isn't poisoned.
    - zer0tonin 4y ago
      The issue is that we're not that new anymore, people have been doing software engineering for at least half a century.
  - 29athrowaway 4y ago
    In the beginning, if you wanted a computer, you had to design and build it yourself. You had to be an expert in electronics and computer science to do it. And back then, there were no computer parts. You had to manufacture everything yourself from vacuum tubes. Once you were done, you would have a tiny amount of memory and processing power to work with, meaning that you had to be an expert programmer to take advantage of that tiny processing power. And, there were no stored programs. Your program was implemented as an arrangement of cables on a plugboard, something that was error prone and time consuming. There were no compilers or interpreters for your code therefore no compiler errors, no runtime errors, no debugger, no anything. If things didn't work, they just didn't work and some types of mistakes would have disastrous effects on the hardware. Now, you don't need any of that. Yet, you can call yourself "full stack". No one truly full stack anymore.
    - w4ffl35 4y ago
      no one is saying to take it back to assembly, but at least maybe try to understand how asynchronous code works if you're going to try to program professional applications in Javascript.
- w4ffl35 4y ago
  I am self-taught and cringe when i think back to my early days because I knew so little and didn't realize it. I've never attended any CS courses and learned everything I know from putting in almost constant work on the side (I mean this literally, I almost only work on creative projects with all of my spare time) -- but I can't overstate how much I learned from people on the job as well, they propelled me to new heights. All this is to say: I don't begrudge newcomers and have always tried to give back more than what I got from others when I was Jr... But good lord bootcamps do not produce much in the way of talent in my experience. I'm sure there are some shining stars that benefited, but I have yet to meet one of them. One guy I worked with fully admitted to me in private that he plagiarized his "final" for bootcamp which was a rather difficult algorithm. He just used some open source code he found on github and only slightly modified it. The code he wrote that I had to support was some of the worst spaghetti I've had to pick apart and fix and he was the lead engineer for the company. These companies would make more money with proper talent. Code camps need to go away.
  - brundolf 4y ago
    I've worked with many bootcampers and all but one have been fantastic. And the one wasn't bad because of arrogance or deception; they were a super nice person with plenty of integrity. They were bad at their job because they simply had no feel for programming, and would have been just as bad if they'd had a CS degree. Bootcamps are like anything: you get out what you put in. They are a(n often effective!) way of learning a skill. If there's a problem, it's with tech hiring and its ability to accurately evaluate candidates. But that's an intrinsically hard task, and I don't know if there's a real solution (and the inaccuracy cuts both ways, and affects everyone, regardless of where they learned to code). Stop inflating your own narrow experience and projecting it onto a huge swath of people. Pushing stereotypes is harmful.
    - w4ffl35 4y ago
      I gave an anecdote mentioning one shitty individual who would likely do shitty things even as a proper CS student yes. Beyond that I'm dissing the form of education, not the individual human. Maybe they're "nice" people but if they are leading a team of engineers right out of bootcamp, you're gonna have a bad time (and I've seen this happen in at least one occasion as I mentioned).
- dragonly 4y ago
  You are so right. People now in the industry know the mechanism of money and capital much better than software. But as a software engineer who loves the technology and products that we can build from it, I would really appreciate real DBAs with in-depth skills. After all, databases are essential, and we need experts.
  - no-s 4y ago
    > I would really appreciate real DBAs with in-depth skills. heheh, I hear that all the time, but show me the money...
pyuser583 4y ago
I’ve worked with DBAs at well-funded, forwarding thinking startups. But they wore lots hats. I worried it was a way to get H1B visas for software dev roles.
- w4ffl35 4y ago
  Why would dba help get h1b over other roles?
  - pyuser583 4y ago
    Employers have to show they can’t hire enough locals. If there is a surplus of “software developers” locally, it might be tricky to get H1B folks. So they simply say, “We are not hiring for software developers, we are hiring for DBAs … totally different thing ;).”
    - w4ffl35 4y ago
      Shady. The worst ive seen is forcing your American staff to hire a massive overseas team at approx $10k per employee per year, having them set up a local company in their country with the understanding that it's just a front and you are their only client, force them to work during American hours and forcing all of your American employees to remote train them for two years and then firing your American staff. Had this happen to me once.
      - pyuser583 4y ago
        How did it work out for the company?
compton93 4y ago
I hate to imagine how many startups out there don't even create indexes and just consider it to be a database problem and increase CPU/RAM and look the other way. I worked for several years at a semi-startup as a Database Engineer where my role was to guide developers in writing performant SQL (and writing indexes for them) and architect their schema to be inline with our future plans and various other database tasks (managing query plans, being an expert on the database feature set etc). I even created an internal course: SQL School, that I included the directors/customer support teams in. To that specific company my role was priceless, new features could be built in 1/2 the time with an expert writing the queries and handling the database. My programmatic analysis of our 20 year old code base had 5000 unique queries and 3000 more when accounting for dynamic SQL. Not gonna lie it was a complete mess but if I didn't exist they would have needed a lot more database resources. It was a terrible code base and any plan to refactor and avoid this mess would still need my role to do the transition. I loved that job but its extremely hard to transition to any other roles and nowadays its easier to use alternative solutions.
- whakim 4y ago
  My experience is that almost any startup needs to write some complex SQL and has to deal with slow query performance, so at least one or two engineers tend to be good at SQL/databases/query plans/indexing/etc. They may not be as knowledgeable or useful as a full dedicated Database Engineer/DBA, but at least you have indices/someone who enjoys writing SQL/someone who thinks about query performance.
  - samus 4y ago
    Or they don't and then conclude that SQL and relational DBMSs are crap and that they have to switch to NoSQL to save the day (/s but only slightly)
- mastazi 4y ago
  > don't even create indexes and just consider it to be a database problem is this DBA stuff though? Sounds like creating indexes would be basic junior-level backend dev knowledge?
brundolf 4y ago
> small teams trying to support the whole stack with their javascript bootcamp training are the biggest reason so much tech is absolute garbage these days The lazy stereotyping is inaccurate, caustic, and uncalled-for. I've worked with several bootcampers, and nearly all of them have been entirely capable.
- compton93 4y ago
  I think it depends. I've seen bootcampers who are motivated by being a Software Engineer at FAANG on 500k yet they don't understand why turning off your computer stops programs from running. But I've also met bootcampers who spent several years writing bots for runescape or coding in their spare time and are using the bootcamps as a way in to the industry.
  - brundolf 4y ago
    Which just supports the point that the stereotype doesn't hold up, and only serves to discourage and exclude capable people who may already have impostor-syndrome.
  - w4ffl35 4y ago
    I'd argue the years writing bots and coding in their spare time are what benefited them and the bootcamps just helped them pass the interview... which is exactly the same thing I've been saying in all my comments already.
- w4ffl35 4y ago
  I've contested in a separate comment that there are likely some talented individuals who took a boot camp course. Really doesn't say much for bootcamps though. My anecdotal experiences differ from your anecdotal experiences. My experience has been that people were trained to pass interviews not keep jobs.
  - brundolf 4y ago
    The difference is that I'm not claiming bootcampers are broadly exceptional, either; I'm saying I don't have enough data to tell you whether or not someone will be a good engineer based on whether or not they went to a bootcamp. I know my anecdotes are limited, and I'm not trying to make broad statements based on them.
Aeolun 4y ago
Hmm, I kind of feel like if someone is still around as a DBA now, it’s either because they’re amazingly good, or amazingly bad.

29athrowaway 4y ago

Lots of people in the industry are in a race against time to make as much money as possible before they have to understand how things work.

lliamander 4y ago
The implications for the future of this industry, if what you say is true, are profound.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  Isn't it true for a lot of newish industries ? For instance we have the EV boom, and visibly a lot of companies are rushing in to try to make as much as they can without planning for what they would do if they become the next Toyota. But surely, some are planning a bit more ahead (or have a more long term viable approach, even if by accident), and time will tell who they are. My glass half full view would be that we don't need most companies to succeed, as long as the well isn't poisoned.
  - zer0tonin 4y ago
    The issue is that we're not that new anymore, people have been doing software engineering for at least half a century.
- 29athrowaway 4y ago
  In the beginning, if you wanted a computer, you had to design and build it yourself. You had to be an expert in electronics and computer science to do it. And back then, there were no computer parts. You had to manufacture everything yourself from vacuum tubes. Once you were done, you would have a tiny amount of memory and processing power to work with, meaning that you had to be an expert programmer to take advantage of that tiny processing power. And, there were no stored programs. Your program was implemented as an arrangement of cables on a plugboard, something that was error prone and time consuming. There were no compilers or interpreters for your code therefore no compiler errors, no runtime errors, no debugger, no anything. If things didn't work, they just didn't work and some types of mistakes would have disastrous effects on the hardware. Now, you don't need any of that. Yet, you can call yourself "full stack". No one truly full stack anymore.
  - w4ffl35 4y ago
    no one is saying to take it back to assembly, but at least maybe try to understand how asynchronous code works if you're going to try to program professional applications in Javascript.
w4ffl35 4y ago
I am self-taught and cringe when i think back to my early days because I knew so little and didn't realize it. I've never attended any CS courses and learned everything I know from putting in almost constant work on the side (I mean this literally, I almost only work on creative projects with all of my spare time) -- but I can't overstate how much I learned from people on the job as well, they propelled me to new heights. All this is to say: I don't begrudge newcomers and have always tried to give back more than what I got from others when I was Jr... But good lord bootcamps do not produce much in the way of talent in my experience. I'm sure there are some shining stars that benefited, but I have yet to meet one of them. One guy I worked with fully admitted to me in private that he plagiarized his "final" for bootcamp which was a rather difficult algorithm. He just used some open source code he found on github and only slightly modified it. The code he wrote that I had to support was some of the worst spaghetti I've had to pick apart and fix and he was the lead engineer for the company. These companies would make more money with proper talent. Code camps need to go away.
- brundolf 4y ago
  I've worked with many bootcampers and all but one have been fantastic. And the one wasn't bad because of arrogance or deception; they were a super nice person with plenty of integrity. They were bad at their job because they simply had no feel for programming, and would have been just as bad if they'd had a CS degree. Bootcamps are like anything: you get out what you put in. They are a(n often effective!) way of learning a skill. If there's a problem, it's with tech hiring and its ability to accurately evaluate candidates. But that's an intrinsically hard task, and I don't know if there's a real solution (and the inaccuracy cuts both ways, and affects everyone, regardless of where they learned to code). Stop inflating your own narrow experience and projecting it onto a huge swath of people. Pushing stereotypes is harmful.
  - w4ffl35 4y ago
    I gave an anecdote mentioning one shitty individual who would likely do shitty things even as a proper CS student yes. Beyond that I'm dissing the form of education, not the individual human. Maybe they're "nice" people but if they are leading a team of engineers right out of bootcamp, you're gonna have a bad time (and I've seen this happen in at least one occasion as I mentioned).
dragonly 4y ago
You are so right. People now in the industry know the mechanism of money and capital much better than software. But as a software engineer who loves the technology and products that we can build from it, I would really appreciate real DBAs with in-depth skills. After all, databases are essential, and we need experts.
- no-s 4y ago
  > I would really appreciate real DBAs with in-depth skills. heheh, I hear that all the time, but show me the money...

pyuser583 4y ago

I’ve worked with DBAs at well-funded, forwarding thinking startups. But they wore lots hats. I worried it was a way to get H1B visas for software dev roles.

w4ffl35 4y ago
Why would dba help get h1b over other roles?
- pyuser583 4y ago
  Employers have to show they can’t hire enough locals. If there is a surplus of “software developers” locally, it might be tricky to get H1B folks. So they simply say, “We are not hiring for software developers, we are hiring for DBAs … totally different thing ;).”
  - w4ffl35 4y ago
    Shady. The worst ive seen is forcing your American staff to hire a massive overseas team at approx $10k per employee per year, having them set up a local company in their country with the understanding that it's just a front and you are their only client, force them to work during American hours and forcing all of your American employees to remote train them for two years and then firing your American staff. Had this happen to me once.
    - pyuser583 4y ago
      How did it work out for the company?

compton93 4y ago

I hate to imagine how many startups out there don't even create indexes and just consider it to be a database problem and increase CPU/RAM and look the other way. I worked for several years at a semi-startup as a Database Engineer where my role was to guide developers in writing performant SQL (and writing indexes for them) and architect their schema to be inline with our future plans and various other database tasks (managing query plans, being an expert on the database feature set etc). I even created an internal course: SQL School, that I included the directors/customer support teams in. To that specific company my role was priceless, new features could be built in 1/2 the time with an expert writing the queries and handling the database. My programmatic analysis of our 20 year old code base had 5000 unique queries and 3000 more when accounting for dynamic SQL. Not gonna lie it was a complete mess but if I didn't exist they would have needed a lot more database resources. It was a terrible code base and any plan to refactor and avoid this mess would still need my role to do the transition. I loved that job but its extremely hard to transition to any other roles and nowadays its easier to use alternative solutions.

whakim 4y ago
My experience is that almost any startup needs to write some complex SQL and has to deal with slow query performance, so at least one or two engineers tend to be good at SQL/databases/query plans/indexing/etc. They may not be as knowledgeable or useful as a full dedicated Database Engineer/DBA, but at least you have indices/someone who enjoys writing SQL/someone who thinks about query performance.
- samus 4y ago
  Or they don't and then conclude that SQL and relational DBMSs are crap and that they have to switch to NoSQL to save the day (/s but only slightly)
mastazi 4y ago
> don't even create indexes and just consider it to be a database problem is this DBA stuff though? Sounds like creating indexes would be basic junior-level backend dev knowledge?

brundolf 4y ago

> small teams trying to support the whole stack with their javascript bootcamp training are the biggest reason so much tech is absolute garbage these days The lazy stereotyping is inaccurate, caustic, and uncalled-for. I've worked with several bootcampers, and nearly all of them have been entirely capable.

compton93 4y ago
I think it depends. I've seen bootcampers who are motivated by being a Software Engineer at FAANG on 500k yet they don't understand why turning off your computer stops programs from running. But I've also met bootcampers who spent several years writing bots for runescape or coding in their spare time and are using the bootcamps as a way in to the industry.
- brundolf 4y ago
  Which just supports the point that the stereotype doesn't hold up, and only serves to discourage and exclude capable people who may already have impostor-syndrome.
- w4ffl35 4y ago
  I'd argue the years writing bots and coding in their spare time are what benefited them and the bootcamps just helped them pass the interview... which is exactly the same thing I've been saying in all my comments already.
w4ffl35 4y ago
I've contested in a separate comment that there are likely some talented individuals who took a boot camp course. Really doesn't say much for bootcamps though. My anecdotal experiences differ from your anecdotal experiences. My experience has been that people were trained to pass interviews not keep jobs.
- brundolf 4y ago
  The difference is that I'm not claiming bootcampers are broadly exceptional, either; I'm saying I don't have enough data to tell you whether or not someone will be a good engineer based on whether or not they went to a bootcamp. I know my anecdotes are limited, and I'm not trying to make broad statements based on them.

Aeolun 4y ago

Hmm, I kind of feel like if someone is still around as a DBA now, it’s either because they’re amazingly good, or amazingly bad.