5 ms·

>Sarariman I get using loan words when they have a different definition in the new language, but what's the difference between a sarariman and a salary man?

Razengan 5y ago
I guess the same as between an emoji and an emoticon.
- cyphar 5y ago
  Emoji doesn't share an etymology with the English word emoticon. 絵文字 just means "picture character" and is a native Japanese word.
  - marssaxman 4y ago
    Wow, I never knew! Thanks for explaining.
- charcircuit 5y ago
  Those are different things. An emoticon is like :) where an emoji would be a single character of a smiling face.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
kadoban 5y ago
Did the phrase "salary man" exist before the Japanese phrase? I believe it's kind of a loan word that just happens to be made up of originally English words.
- pvg 5y ago
  Wikipedia seems to think it's not one of those: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaryman#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaryman#History
  - cyphar 5y ago
    On the other hand, Japanese Wikipedia[1] says it was originally a 和製英語 (wasei-eigo/Japanese-invented English word): > ただしサラリーマン (salaryman) は元々和製英語であり、… 「サラリーマン」は和製英語であるが、後に欧米でも「"日本の"ホワイトカラーの会社員」を指す普通名詞（Salaryman）として浸透しつつある。 ("But "salaryman" is originally a Japanese-invented English word [...] Though "salaryman" is a Japanese-invented English word, it has subsequently spread throughout the West as a way of referring to Japanese white collar workers.") Though 大辞林 (one of the main dictionaries) does say "salaried man" in its definition, I'm not sure whether that proves that is the etymology (usually 和製英語 are noted differently but given that the term is used outside of Japan now they might just write it in a way that'd be understood even if it's not correct). [1]: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B5%E3%83%A9%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%B3 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B5%E3%83%A9%E3%83%AA%E3...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
rcoder 5y ago
I’m not sure this is universally true, but in most contexts I’ve heard while studying Japanese and visiting Japan, サラリマン (sarariman) indicates someone with the kind of lifetime-employment, “I live in town in a coffin hotel during the week and only see my family on the weekends” job that used to be common for white-collar workers. The identity, uniform, and work ethic are all part of the package. It’s been a while since most big companies in the US could claim that kind of life-long career and mutual loyalty was likely or even desirable, but early IBM might be an apt comparison., down to the dress code, company songbook, and 40-year tenures for senior staff.
- needle0 5y ago
  The proper notation would be "サラリーマン", with a bar between リ and マ which indicates an elongated sound. In fact, writing it as "サラリマン" actually evokes images of a "caricatured western-POV stereotype of a Japanese stereotype salaryman" due to westerners frequently making this mistake.
  - totetsu 5y ago
    This same sound shift is why the escalator says babI-car and not baby-car
  - rcoder 5y ago
    Yep, you're right. My apologies. It has been about 25 years since I actively studied or spoke Japanese, and I was typing on my phone. My explanation was trying for "understandable" but may have veered into "problematically over-simplified," not to mention insufficiently copy-edited.
wodenokoto 5y ago
Maybe salaryman hadn’t entered the English vocabulary by the 80s. Salaryman almost always refers to Japanese white collar.
- veidr 5y ago
  I think this is right. I read Neuromancer and first came to Japan in the 1980s. IIRC the term "salaryman" wasn't yet commonly known in English. However, it was known by English-speaking people who had been to Japan, or were somehow involved with Japan. But not yet mainstream English.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  It absolutely had entered English vocabulary, if only so far as to refer to Japanese people we were told were obliged to drink at karaoke bars with co-workers every evening. Probably most Americans' awareness of Japanese words came from a very long James Clavell historical novel amazingly many people read, as was still done back then, called Shōgun. I recall a very bad movie in which a black gang leader insisted on being called Shōgun, for no apparent reason.
  - bane 5y ago
    I think you are referring to "The Last Dragon" which is considered an all time cult classic.
    - selimthegrim 5y ago
      Shogun had been made into a TV miniseries with Richard Chamberlain c. 1980
      - the_af 5y ago
        Shogun, the TV miniseries, is pretty good. It features actual Japanese stars like Toshiro Mifune, and spoken Japanese (without subtitles) during much of the show, which was novel at the time. I think the other commenter referred to an unrelated TV show with a gang leader calling himself "a Shogun".

Razengan 5y ago

I guess the same as between an emoji and an emoticon.

cyphar 5y ago
Emoji doesn't share an etymology with the English word emoticon. 絵文字 just means "picture character" and is a native Japanese word.
- marssaxman 4y ago
  Wow, I never knew! Thanks for explaining.
charcircuit 5y ago
Those are different things. An emoticon is like :) where an emoji would be a single character of a smiling face.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

kadoban 5y ago

Did the phrase "salary man" exist before the Japanese phrase? I believe it's kind of a loan word that just happens to be made up of originally English words.

pvg 5y ago
Wikipedia seems to think it's not one of those: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaryman#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaryman#History
- cyphar 5y ago
  On the other hand, Japanese Wikipedia[1] says it was originally a 和製英語 (wasei-eigo/Japanese-invented English word): > ただしサラリーマン (salaryman) は元々和製英語であり、… 「サラリーマン」は和製英語であるが、後に欧米でも「"日本の"ホワイトカラーの会社員」を指す普通名詞（Salaryman）として浸透しつつある。 ("But "salaryman" is originally a Japanese-invented English word [...] Though "salaryman" is a Japanese-invented English word, it has subsequently spread throughout the West as a way of referring to Japanese white collar workers.") Though 大辞林 (one of the main dictionaries) does say "salaried man" in its definition, I'm not sure whether that proves that is the etymology (usually 和製英語 are noted differently but given that the term is used outside of Japan now they might just write it in a way that'd be understood even if it's not correct). [1]: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B5%E3%83%A9%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%B3 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B5%E3%83%A9%E3%83%AA%E3...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

rcoder 5y ago

I’m not sure this is universally true, but in most contexts I’ve heard while studying Japanese and visiting Japan, サラリマン (sarariman) indicates someone with the kind of lifetime-employment, “I live in town in a coffin hotel during the week and only see my family on the weekends” job that used to be common for white-collar workers. The identity, uniform, and work ethic are all part of the package. It’s been a while since most big companies in the US could claim that kind of life-long career and mutual loyalty was likely or even desirable, but early IBM might be an apt comparison., down to the dress code, company songbook, and 40-year tenures for senior staff.

needle0 5y ago
The proper notation would be "サラリーマン", with a bar between リ and マ which indicates an elongated sound. In fact, writing it as "サラリマン" actually evokes images of a "caricatured western-POV stereotype of a Japanese stereotype salaryman" due to westerners frequently making this mistake.
- totetsu 5y ago
  This same sound shift is why the escalator says babI-car and not baby-car
- rcoder 5y ago
  Yep, you're right. My apologies. It has been about 25 years since I actively studied or spoke Japanese, and I was typing on my phone. My explanation was trying for "understandable" but may have veered into "problematically over-simplified," not to mention insufficiently copy-edited.

wodenokoto 5y ago

Maybe salaryman hadn’t entered the English vocabulary by the 80s. Salaryman almost always refers to Japanese white collar.

veidr 5y ago
I think this is right. I read Neuromancer and first came to Japan in the 1980s. IIRC the term "salaryman" wasn't yet commonly known in English. However, it was known by English-speaking people who had been to Japan, or were somehow involved with Japan. But not yet mainstream English.
ncmncm 5y ago
It absolutely had entered English vocabulary, if only so far as to refer to Japanese people we were told were obliged to drink at karaoke bars with co-workers every evening. Probably most Americans' awareness of Japanese words came from a very long James Clavell historical novel amazingly many people read, as was still done back then, called Shōgun. I recall a very bad movie in which a black gang leader insisted on being called Shōgun, for no apparent reason.
- bane 5y ago
  I think you are referring to "The Last Dragon" which is considered an all time cult classic.
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    Shogun had been made into a TV miniseries with Richard Chamberlain c. 1980
    - the_af 5y ago
      Shogun, the TV miniseries, is pretty good. It features actual Japanese stars like Toshiro Mifune, and spoken Japanese (without subtitles) during much of the show, which was novel at the time. I think the other commenter referred to an unrelated TV show with a gang leader calling himself "a Shogun".