4 ms·

My issue with this specific concept is that lots and lots of people are lazy and instead of doing compassionate things, they "feel compassion" as a generic emot

My issue with this specific concept is that lots and lots of people are lazy and instead of doing compassionate things, they "feel compassion" as a generic emotion through the use of meditation. I studied Buddhism quite a while pretty seriously, and I know that a lot of the meditations involve practicing loving yourself, and your friends, family, community, and that these feelings of love are a core thing to have in your mind as your practice. But you also have to actually do things to help, it's not enough to be nice about it. The Buddhist temple I took some meditation classes at practiced feeling good things towards people. The Episcopalians next door ran a shelter. It's not hard to see which is further on the path towards enlightenment, and it's something that seems like it's very very often missing from Western teachings. And completely absent from self-help books about the subject, which are 100% self-centered. Lesson 1 of compassion meditation should be volunteering at a food bank, not learning to forgive yourself for your flaws. These things should be learned together, not in isolation.

simplify 4y ago
Agreed. As James 2:15 puts it: If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
reom_tobit 4y ago
This has broadly been my experience of secular meditation also, I haven’t explored any other schools. What did help me though was a book called “Constructive Living” by David K Reynolds. It talks a lot about what you mention. The importance of “doing what needs to be done”. I got quite into meditating, but I found it just made me go far too inside my own head. It’s easy to feel compassion inside your own house.
- neltnerb 4y ago
  Yes, something about living in the moment and responding skillfully and helpfully naturally. Doing those things naturally is what takes practice, you just don't get practice exercising those compassion-action responses if you only do mantras in your own home and it remains entirely theoretical. I suppose it's fair that in some senses "enlightenment" is orthogonal to "being good" if you use some systems of analysis. By that logic monks sequestered in a monastery are doing something important (?) even if there's little measurable impact of their work on the world around them. I have issues with that logic, I think "to whom" is important and if the answer is "to the person doing it" I'm not sure compassion is really the right adjective anymore. Of course, translation challenges abound in this area of discussion.
lukasb 4y ago
Yeah fair. I asked a teacher once, "seems like Buddhists don't have the best record at service, should I be concerned about that?" and he just replied "yes." That said, I wouldn't be dismissive about people learning to forgive themselves for their flaws ...
- KerrAvon 4y ago
  I suspect every Buddhist teacher will say yes to that question. But I don’t think it necessarily means they agree with the premise.
- neltnerb 4y ago
  Nah, I'm not dismissive of it, it is extremely important. Self-love is critical to be able to love others. Still, my point is that compassion and actually helping people should be taught in parallel. It is better in a Sangha, of course, at least mutually. Consider the story of Buddha’s Dog as my go-to story about how Buddhists are definitely saying you need to actually take action to help people in the world for your own self improvement, it's not enough to just feel sad about things and "want to help". https://theosophywatch.wordpress.com/2019/06/05/tales-of-enlightenment-buddhas-dog-and-mahatma-of-the-himavat/ https://theosophywatch.wordpress.com/2019/06/05/tales-of-enl...
WaxedChewbacca 4y ago

simplify 4y ago

Agreed. As James 2:15 puts it: If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

reom_tobit 4y ago

This has broadly been my experience of secular meditation also, I haven’t explored any other schools. What did help me though was a book called “Constructive Living” by David K Reynolds. It talks a lot about what you mention. The importance of “doing what needs to be done”. I got quite into meditating, but I found it just made me go far too inside my own head. It’s easy to feel compassion inside your own house.

neltnerb 4y ago
Yes, something about living in the moment and responding skillfully and helpfully naturally. Doing those things naturally is what takes practice, you just don't get practice exercising those compassion-action responses if you only do mantras in your own home and it remains entirely theoretical. I suppose it's fair that in some senses "enlightenment" is orthogonal to "being good" if you use some systems of analysis. By that logic monks sequestered in a monastery are doing something important (?) even if there's little measurable impact of their work on the world around them. I have issues with that logic, I think "to whom" is important and if the answer is "to the person doing it" I'm not sure compassion is really the right adjective anymore. Of course, translation challenges abound in this area of discussion.

lukasb 4y ago

Yeah fair. I asked a teacher once, "seems like Buddhists don't have the best record at service, should I be concerned about that?" and he just replied "yes." That said, I wouldn't be dismissive about people learning to forgive themselves for their flaws ...

KerrAvon 4y ago
I suspect every Buddhist teacher will say yes to that question. But I don’t think it necessarily means they agree with the premise.
neltnerb 4y ago
Nah, I'm not dismissive of it, it is extremely important. Self-love is critical to be able to love others. Still, my point is that compassion and actually helping people should be taught in parallel. It is better in a Sangha, of course, at least mutually. Consider the story of Buddha’s Dog as my go-to story about how Buddhists are definitely saying you need to actually take action to help people in the world for your own self improvement, it's not enough to just feel sad about things and "want to help". https://theosophywatch.wordpress.com/2019/06/05/tales-of-enlightenment-buddhas-dog-and-mahatma-of-the-himavat/ https://theosophywatch.wordpress.com/2019/06/05/tales-of-enl...

WaxedChewbacca 4y ago