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And also nutty statements like this: > Americans and Europeans may at that point be de-facto barred from visiting China by their own governments ...which seem

And also nutty statements like this: > Americans and Europeans may at that point be de-facto barred from visiting China by their own governments ...which seems to indicate a lack of familiarity with the relationship between American+European governments and their citizens.

paganel 5y ago
As an EU citizen I was de facto forbidden to enter other EU countries until relatively recently (because of the pandemic), not sure why do you find that conclusion far-fetched. Also, because I may want to actually visit the US sometime in the future I've been making a conscious decision not to visit Iran, for example (even though I find Iran to be a beautiful country, at least from the photos I can find on the web). I know there's no explicit "if you have visited Iran you cannot visit the USA anymore" policy coming from the US visa officials, but I feel like that's the direction things are going right now so why risk it?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- stickfigure 5y ago
  Half of Americans think our visa/visitor/immigration regime is capricious and unfair, and the other half wants it to be worse. As part of the former group, I apologize on behalf of my countrymen. But Americans are not forbidden from visiting Iran and there is nothing the US government will do to me if I take a holiday there (and survive the experience). Cuba seems a bit more on point, but it's worth mentioning that the point is not to prevent travel there, but to prevent money from flowing there. And even that's incredibly leaky - pretty much everyone I know has been to Cuba at least once. I should have included the full quote: > Americans and Europeans may at that point be de-facto barred from visiting China by their own governments, so seeing the still-gleaming cities such as Shanghai and Guangzhou up close won’t be an option. It's not like the US State Dept is afraid that Americans are going to realize the socialist paradise of Cuba. The only circumstance you could imagine US travel to China banned would be the kind of sanctions that prevent all economic activity with China first - which haven't even been applied to pariah states like Iran or Russia. And it's worth pointing out that Europeans freely travel to Cuba. The idea that the US government would prevent citizens from traveling to China because they're afraid that citizens will see it as some sort of gleaming paradise is nonsense on its face, especially to someone who grew up here.
  - nradov 5y ago
    The issue is that Europeans who have visited Iran are no longer eligible for the USA visa waiver program. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-visit/visa-waiver-program.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-...
nine_k 5y ago
This does not require US or EU governments to forbid anything to their citizens. It may require US and EU governments to act so that China will see US and EU citizens as extremely unwelcome.
popularonion 5y ago
Americans have been de facto banned from visiting Cuba as long as I’ve been alive. I can totally imagine similar policies for Russia and China in the not too distant future.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  "de facto" is used as an antonym of "de jure". Travel to Cuba is controlled by 31 C.F.R 515.560. It is controlled by statue, therefore it is "de jure".

paganel 5y ago

As an EU citizen I was de facto forbidden to enter other EU countries until relatively recently (because of the pandemic), not sure why do you find that conclusion far-fetched. Also, because I may want to actually visit the US sometime in the future I've been making a conscious decision not to visit Iran, for example (even though I find Iran to be a beautiful country, at least from the photos I can find on the web). I know there's no explicit "if you have visited Iran you cannot visit the USA anymore" policy coming from the US visa officials, but I feel like that's the direction things are going right now so why risk it?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
stickfigure 5y ago
Half of Americans think our visa/visitor/immigration regime is capricious and unfair, and the other half wants it to be worse. As part of the former group, I apologize on behalf of my countrymen. But Americans are not forbidden from visiting Iran and there is nothing the US government will do to me if I take a holiday there (and survive the experience). Cuba seems a bit more on point, but it's worth mentioning that the point is not to prevent travel there, but to prevent money from flowing there. And even that's incredibly leaky - pretty much everyone I know has been to Cuba at least once. I should have included the full quote: > Americans and Europeans may at that point be de-facto barred from visiting China by their own governments, so seeing the still-gleaming cities such as Shanghai and Guangzhou up close won’t be an option. It's not like the US State Dept is afraid that Americans are going to realize the socialist paradise of Cuba. The only circumstance you could imagine US travel to China banned would be the kind of sanctions that prevent all economic activity with China first - which haven't even been applied to pariah states like Iran or Russia. And it's worth pointing out that Europeans freely travel to Cuba. The idea that the US government would prevent citizens from traveling to China because they're afraid that citizens will see it as some sort of gleaming paradise is nonsense on its face, especially to someone who grew up here.
- nradov 5y ago
  The issue is that Europeans who have visited Iran are no longer eligible for the USA visa waiver program. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-visit/visa-waiver-program.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-...

nine_k 5y ago

This does not require US or EU governments to forbid anything to their citizens. It may require US and EU governments to act so that China will see US and EU citizens as extremely unwelcome.

popularonion 5y ago

Americans have been de facto banned from visiting Cuba as long as I’ve been alive. I can totally imagine similar policies for Russia and China in the not too distant future.

jeffbee 5y ago
"de facto" is used as an antonym of "de jure". Travel to Cuba is controlled by 31 C.F.R 515.560. It is controlled by statue, therefore it is "de jure".