4 ms·

Ford did what Tesla won’t

8 points by clouddrover 5y ago

PaulHoule 5y ago
A lot of that is American carmakers playing to their strengths if not their fetishes. It has been easy to get parts to make radical revisions to American cars (crate engines) for a long time, much more so than other carmakers. Also, American carmakers have long been obsessed with trucks to the point where sometimes I wonder: Will they stop making trucks? Will the people who used to think cars were a problem for the environment (with bicycles, busses, walking being answered) come to see trucks and suvs as the problem and cars the solution?
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  Trucks are just too profitable to produce and sell compared to other forms. And many of their buyers can rationalize their purchase easily: I need to haul things 2x per decade, it'll be safer, I can see more being higher, gas is (was) cheap, it projects my masculinity, I can go off-road, all my neighbors have them, etc. Few will check statistics around safety, especially for pedestrians and bicyclists.
  - acheron 5y ago
    Or, you know, they actually use the truck for hauling/towing things. Go off with your condescension though.
    - paulryanrogers 5y ago
      Some people and businesses having legitimate need doesn't mean pickups aren't over produced/sold. It's approaching 3 million sold per year in the US. Does the country really need nearly one new pickup per 10 people every year?! How often are people hauling things? Is it really so bad to rent or borrow as needed?
    - PolygonSheep 5y ago
      It seems to me it would be more economical to rent a truck to haul things if you only need to do so occasionally. If you're a tradesman or a contractor yeah you will need to own a truck. If you're a white collar desk jockey? Come on now. I'd much rather spend half as much on gas, make much smaller payments and then just pay U-Haul $100 or so for the one or two days a year I might need one (plus you can rent a much larger truck than a Silverado/F-150). So I drive a subcompact hatchback and rent a truck if/when I need one. It's not even for the environment either. I just don't like sitting up high and I find large vehicles difficult to park and maneuver.
      - Ekaros 5y ago
        Unless you go to somewhere with bad roads, a van might be better option for most tradesman. Unless you need to move something really bulky. I'm European, but the whole use case for trucks seem overstated to me always.
      - tssva 5y ago
        Even white collar desk jockeys can need a truck on a regular basis. I'm one and own a truck. For about 9 months a year I use it frequently, at least once a week on average, to pull a horse trailer to get my daughter's horses around. A 4 wheel drive vehicle is required to reach my beach house because it requires driving on a beach which doesn't have compacted sand to drive on. AWD drive vehicles can't make it. I help pull many of them out of the sand each summer.
        paulryanrogers 5y ago
        Beach house, child with multiple horses, how common are such things? Perhaps I'm still being underpaid or am of less fortunate breeding.
        PaulHoule 5y ago
        We've got 7 horses all of which are used in lessons. We have a compact car. Most of the people who run a riding barn probably do have a big-ass track to carry a horse trailer around but most of the people who start a riding barn lose money at it. (We've seen three individuals go out of business running a big horse barn down the road... It finally got somebody who is sensible.) We started out really small (just two) so we never wound up with a large herd of unprofitable animals the way a lot of people do who feel pressured to get 10-15 horses right away. The usual justification for that horse trailer is to go to and from horse shows which we don't do. When we get a new animal (maybe once every two years) we pay somebody with a truck to haul it for us.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  > Will they stop making trucks? No. They will make electric trucks: https://www.thedrive.com/news/the-ford-f-150-lightning-is-now-officially-in-production https://www.thedrive.com/news/the-ford-f-150-lightning-is-no...
  - throw_away 5y ago
    Does this mean that US automakers might start making light trucks again? I thought that the reason why they aren't made much any more was due to milage standards, but that wouldn't be an issue for electric trucks.
    - afiori 5y ago
      Based on previous discussions here EV trucks are going to be significantly heavier due to huge batteries.
    - PolygonSheep 5y ago
      > I thought that the reason why they aren't made much any more was due to milage standards, but that wouldn't be an issue for electric trucks. I'm guessing we will see something like CAFE standards for EVs when they become a majority of the market. Maybe they'll call it CAKE (Corporate Average Kilowatt-hour Economy). The same people now complaining about carbon emissions from ICE trucks will in the future complain about the appalling electricity consumption of electric trucks. I really don't see the climate activist people saying "our work here is done, let's pack up and go home!" when the last ICE vehicle rolls off the assembly line. The battle lines will just shift and the Cybertruck/F150 Lightning/Hummer EV/Rivian R1T will become as reviled as their internal combustion counterparts are today.
  - LinuxBender 5y ago
    Have there been any discussions or rumors when they will have the EV version of the F450 or F550? My neighbors and I would want one with a towing capacity of about 36k lbs. horses, cattle, etc... The diesel F550 is rated for 31k lbs. It needs to work well on roads covered in ice, dirt, mud and operate in ambient temperatures as low as -25F. I asked Ford in their web form but never received a response. To convince folks here to purchase an EV truck it will have to tow more and have the same or better total cost of ownership. People here are also quite skeptical of anything that requires subscribing to features in vehicles. Many of them have already been burnt by farm equipment in this realm.
jmartin2683 5y ago
This is great and all, but the entire point of a brushless electric motor and this it’ll run at full load uninterrupted for years without fail. I can’t see them actually selling many (any?) of these… if they do they have a much bigger problem to solve.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  They're making the motor anyway for the Mustang Mach-E GT. Might as well sell some extra.
mikewarot 5y ago
How do you mount this on a transaxle? It seems to be a drop in replacement for a stock engine, which would then still require transmission, drive shaft, differential, etc.
logicalmonster 5y ago
Do crate motors have any negatives that normal motors don't?

8 points by clouddrover 5y ago

A lot of that is American carmakers playing to their strengths if not their fetishes. It has been easy to get parts to make radical revisions to American cars (crate engines) for a long time, much more so than other carmakers. Also, American carmakers have long been obsessed with trucks to the point where sometimes I wonder: Will they stop making trucks? Will the people who used to think cars were a problem for the environment (with bicycles, busses, walking being answered) come to see trucks and suvs as the problem and cars the solution?

paulryanrogers 5y ago
Trucks are just too profitable to produce and sell compared to other forms. And many of their buyers can rationalize their purchase easily: I need to haul things 2x per decade, it'll be safer, I can see more being higher, gas is (was) cheap, it projects my masculinity, I can go off-road, all my neighbors have them, etc. Few will check statistics around safety, especially for pedestrians and bicyclists.
- acheron 5y ago
  Or, you know, they actually use the truck for hauling/towing things. Go off with your condescension though.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    Some people and businesses having legitimate need doesn't mean pickups aren't over produced/sold. It's approaching 3 million sold per year in the US. Does the country really need nearly one new pickup per 10 people every year?! How often are people hauling things? Is it really so bad to rent or borrow as needed?
  - PolygonSheep 5y ago
    It seems to me it would be more economical to rent a truck to haul things if you only need to do so occasionally. If you're a tradesman or a contractor yeah you will need to own a truck. If you're a white collar desk jockey? Come on now. I'd much rather spend half as much on gas, make much smaller payments and then just pay U-Haul $100 or so for the one or two days a year I might need one (plus you can rent a much larger truck than a Silverado/F-150). So I drive a subcompact hatchback and rent a truck if/when I need one. It's not even for the environment either. I just don't like sitting up high and I find large vehicles difficult to park and maneuver.
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      Unless you go to somewhere with bad roads, a van might be better option for most tradesman. Unless you need to move something really bulky. I'm European, but the whole use case for trucks seem overstated to me always.
    - tssva 5y ago
      Even white collar desk jockeys can need a truck on a regular basis. I'm one and own a truck. For about 9 months a year I use it frequently, at least once a week on average, to pull a horse trailer to get my daughter's horses around. A 4 wheel drive vehicle is required to reach my beach house because it requires driving on a beach which doesn't have compacted sand to drive on. AWD drive vehicles can't make it. I help pull many of them out of the sand each summer.
      - paulryanrogers 5y ago
        Beach house, child with multiple horses, how common are such things? Perhaps I'm still being underpaid or am of less fortunate breeding.
        PaulHoule 5y ago
        We've got 7 horses all of which are used in lessons. We have a compact car. Most of the people who run a riding barn probably do have a big-ass track to carry a horse trailer around but most of the people who start a riding barn lose money at it. (We've seen three individuals go out of business running a big horse barn down the road... It finally got somebody who is sensible.) We started out really small (just two) so we never wound up with a large herd of unprofitable animals the way a lot of people do who feel pressured to get 10-15 horses right away. The usual justification for that horse trailer is to go to and from horse shows which we don't do. When we get a new animal (maybe once every two years) we pay somebody with a truck to haul it for us.
clouddrover 5y ago
> Will they stop making trucks? No. They will make electric trucks: https://www.thedrive.com/news/the-ford-f-150-lightning-is-now-officially-in-production https://www.thedrive.com/news/the-ford-f-150-lightning-is-no...
- throw_away 5y ago
  Does this mean that US automakers might start making light trucks again? I thought that the reason why they aren't made much any more was due to milage standards, but that wouldn't be an issue for electric trucks.
  - afiori 5y ago
    Based on previous discussions here EV trucks are going to be significantly heavier due to huge batteries.
  - PolygonSheep 5y ago
    > I thought that the reason why they aren't made much any more was due to milage standards, but that wouldn't be an issue for electric trucks. I'm guessing we will see something like CAFE standards for EVs when they become a majority of the market. Maybe they'll call it CAKE (Corporate Average Kilowatt-hour Economy). The same people now complaining about carbon emissions from ICE trucks will in the future complain about the appalling electricity consumption of electric trucks. I really don't see the climate activist people saying "our work here is done, let's pack up and go home!" when the last ICE vehicle rolls off the assembly line. The battle lines will just shift and the Cybertruck/F150 Lightning/Hummer EV/Rivian R1T will become as reviled as their internal combustion counterparts are today.
- LinuxBender 5y ago
  Have there been any discussions or rumors when they will have the EV version of the F450 or F550? My neighbors and I would want one with a towing capacity of about 36k lbs. horses, cattle, etc... The diesel F550 is rated for 31k lbs. It needs to work well on roads covered in ice, dirt, mud and operate in ambient temperatures as low as -25F. I asked Ford in their web form but never received a response. To convince folks here to purchase an EV truck it will have to tow more and have the same or better total cost of ownership. People here are also quite skeptical of anything that requires subscribing to features in vehicles. Many of them have already been burnt by farm equipment in this realm.

jmartin2683 5y ago

This is great and all, but the entire point of a brushless electric motor and this it’ll run at full load uninterrupted for years without fail. I can’t see them actually selling many (any?) of these… if they do they have a much bigger problem to solve.

clouddrover 5y ago
They're making the motor anyway for the Mustang Mach-E GT. Might as well sell some extra.

mikewarot 5y ago

How do you mount this on a transaxle? It seems to be a drop in replacement for a stock engine, which would then still require transmission, drive shaft, differential, etc.

logicalmonster 5y ago

Do crate motors have any negatives that normal motors don't?