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It is mind-blowing that some programmers cannot understand that autonomous programs — software that continues running independently of control over individual h

It is mind-blowing that some programmers cannot understand that autonomous programs — software that continues running independently of control over individual hardware nodes in the network — are an incredibly powerful and compelling tool. Computers that can make commitments that last beyond the initial promises of the authors of their software.

AndrewDucker 4y ago
What real world use does this have right now It's been a decade. What can I do with it that isn't a variant of "here's some artificial scarcity you can buy into early to make some cash"?
- charcircuit 4y ago
  Borrowing / lending money to other people without the parties having to trust each other or having to wait for a slow and expensive legal system to work it out.
  - AndrewDucker 4y ago
    Awesome! Who is doing this? And how does it compare to transferring money using an existing method?
    - lazzlazzlazz 4y ago
      For a few real world examples that may be easier to grok: - https://goldfinch.finance https://goldfinch.finance - https://www.maple.finance https://www.maple.finance - https://truefi.io https://truefi.io - https://makerdao.com/en/ https://makerdao.com/en/ (there is a growing "real-world asset"-collateralized pool as well) - https://centrifuge.io https://centrifuge.io These all offer rates competitive or superior to traditional methods thanks to being able to access a global pool of capital through a single programming interface that simplifies coordination and risk sharing between counter-parties. And another early example Valora (on the Celo network) where you can make global transfers of money with a Venmo-like experience for fees <$0.01.
      - paradite 4y ago
        > These all offer rates competitive or superior to traditional methods thanks to being able to access a global pool of capital through a single programming interface that simplifies coordination and risk sharing between counter-parties. (Genuinely curious about the answer) How would that be different from, or better than centralized platforms like kickstarter?
      - lottin 4y ago
        None of these explain how unsecured lending works. Goldfinch says that "borrowers are required to pledge real-world assets as collateral" and in the event of default the pledged collateral is liquidated. [1] So that's not unsecured lending. Truefi says that they only lend to institutional borrowers who sign an enforceable lending agreement. [2] So that's a traditional lending agreement that is enforced by courts of justice. Maple also says they only lend to institutional and corporate borrowers [3]. In conclusion, none of these are real world examples of "borrowing and lending to other parties without the parties having to trust each other or having to wait for a slow and expensive legal system to work it out". > These all offer rates competitive or superior to traditional methods Also what do you mean by competitive rates? Note that if the borrower is getting paid interest at a rate above the market rate, the borrower is getting paid a competitive rate, but the lender is paying an uncompetitive rate. [1] https://docs.goldfinch.finance/goldfinch/general-faq https://docs.goldfinch.finance/goldfinch/general-faq [2] https://blog.trusttoken.com/introducing-truefi-the-defi-protocol-for-uncollateralized-lending-9bfd6594a48 https://blog.trusttoken.com/introducing-truefi-the-defi-prot... [3] https://maplefinance.gitbook.io/maple/protocol/borrowers https://maplefinance.gitbook.io/maple/protocol/borrowers
      - 1983054104 4y ago
        I still don't understand how this could change my life. Most people exchange money through their bank accounts for free with things like the SEPA network. I browsed through all those web sites and all I see is ways of using the crypto wallets that have to be previously created through various means incompatible with each other. Let's not talk about the "be your own bank" motto which means that you have to secure your own money which is, at least scary for most people, and at most very difficult to do even for people knowledgeable with computers. Here is something that is revolutionary and actually happened in the past 10 years: *online banks* that have no bricks-and-mortar offices! I created an account in less than 10 minutes, I have a debit card that I can use all over the world, I literally cannot spend more than what I have, and it's still a real bank which means that my account is insured if something bad ever happens. Where is the crypto equivalent?
    - charcircuit 4y ago
      You can find them by just searching but here is one that has borrowing and lending: https://valasfinance.com/markets https://valasfinance.com/markets
  - m12k 4y ago
    Why is that valuable? And more importantly, how is the upside this brings bigger than the downside it brings compared to previous approaches to borrowing/lending?
    - charcircuit 4y ago
      Personally it's valuable to me because it makes it quick and easy for me to loan my money out.
  - drekipus 4y ago
    like that time when there's a bug and something like 40 thousand dollars just goes to waste because ~~~ it's out of everyone's control ~~~ The issue with control is trust. The answer is to enable more trust, not to reduce the control.
    - charcircuit 4y ago
      >like that time when there's a bug and something like 40 thousand dollars just goes to waste because If you are that worried about losing the money you lent you can pay for insurance. Here are some examples. https://app.nexusmutual.io/cover https://app.nexusmutual.io/cover https://app.insurace.io/Insurance/BuyCovers https://app.insurace.io/Insurance/BuyCovers
  - lottin 4y ago
    Lending requires the ability to seize assets, and the ability to seize assets requires a legal system. There's no way around it. Without this lending can't work, because otherwise the borrower can just walk away with the money.
    - charcircuit 4y ago
      >There's no way around it You can have assets on chain that can be used as collateral which can be liquidated if a loan isn't paid back. Additionally lending money is not only done so people can borrow from it. For example decentralized exchanges need a lot of liquidity in order to execute trades without very much slippage. You can provide liquidity to them and they will pay out transaction fees to you in exchange.
      - lottin 4y ago
        If you have to pledge enough collateral to cover the entirety of the principal, your net investment position is either zero or positive. In other words, you're not borrowing anything.
        charcircuit 4y ago
        You are right in that it doesn't make much sense if your collateral is made up of stable coins, but if you had something like bitcoin you may not always want to just trade it for stable coins, do whatever, and then trade back for bitcoin as the price can change. It may be better to just deposit your bitcoin onto one of these platforms (yes you start getting paid for lending bitcoin to them for as long as you keep your bitcoins there). Then you have the ability to borrow a certain amount of some other coin without having to liquidate your bitcoin. If doing so was useless, pawnshops wouldn't exist in real life. There is value in not having to sell something and later try to rebuy it.
        lottin 4y ago
        I never said that it was useless. I said that this isn't borrowing and lending. Borrowing and lending is the primary and most important function of finance. It allows economic agents to trade future consumption for present consumption. Yet it is fundamentally impossible using blockchain technology.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kuschku 4y ago
Smart contracts are interesting, but they're like ray traced quake was in 2004, a curiosity, a toy, something interesting that doesn't have real utility yet. These technologies are good to have in case someday they become actually useful, but the amount of energy and money spent on them today far exceeds their usefulness and is purely hype-driven. For example, there may be actual utility in NFTs: EU law requires that if you buy a game on e.g., steam, you should be able to lend it out, get it back, and resell it. If the EU, in a few years, were to decide games had to be portable between stores, and started actually enforcing these, it would make sense to put the actual game license key up as NFT and allow transfers. But that's a hypothetical. It's not what's happening today. Today's excitement is purely hype. The total energy consumption of PoW blockchains has increased global CO2 output enough that it exceeds the amount of CO2 saved by switching to renewables in the past 20 years. That's not worth it if there's such little utility in there.
- lazzlazzlazz 4y ago
  Like with video games, and even personal computers, often things that start off looking like toys become the next big thing in technology[1]. The properties that make them intriguing to young technologists are not appealing to older technologists, who sometimes miss the fact that these nascent tools take time to mature. [1]: https://cdixon.org/2010/01/03/the-next-big-thing-will-start-out-looking-like-a-toy https://cdixon.org/2010/01/03/the-next-big-thing-will-start-...
  - kuschku 4y ago
    > Like with video games, and even personal computers, often things that start off looking like toys become the next big thing in technology That's true. But we didn't have a hype cycle spending billions and destroying the environment for Pong. We had that only once an actual market of applications for the technology appeared. Crypto isn't there yet, and likely won't be for the next few years. And likely none of today's chains will be used for these applications.

AndrewDucker 4y ago

What real world use does this have right now It's been a decade. What can I do with it that isn't a variant of "here's some artificial scarcity you can buy into early to make some cash"?

charcircuit 4y ago
Borrowing / lending money to other people without the parties having to trust each other or having to wait for a slow and expensive legal system to work it out.
- AndrewDucker 4y ago
  Awesome! Who is doing this? And how does it compare to transferring money using an existing method?
  - lazzlazzlazz 4y ago
    For a few real world examples that may be easier to grok: - https://goldfinch.finance https://goldfinch.finance - https://www.maple.finance https://www.maple.finance - https://truefi.io https://truefi.io - https://makerdao.com/en/ https://makerdao.com/en/ (there is a growing "real-world asset"-collateralized pool as well) - https://centrifuge.io https://centrifuge.io These all offer rates competitive or superior to traditional methods thanks to being able to access a global pool of capital through a single programming interface that simplifies coordination and risk sharing between counter-parties. And another early example Valora (on the Celo network) where you can make global transfers of money with a Venmo-like experience for fees <$0.01.
    - paradite 4y ago
      > These all offer rates competitive or superior to traditional methods thanks to being able to access a global pool of capital through a single programming interface that simplifies coordination and risk sharing between counter-parties. (Genuinely curious about the answer) How would that be different from, or better than centralized platforms like kickstarter?
    - lottin 4y ago
      None of these explain how unsecured lending works. Goldfinch says that "borrowers are required to pledge real-world assets as collateral" and in the event of default the pledged collateral is liquidated. [1] So that's not unsecured lending. Truefi says that they only lend to institutional borrowers who sign an enforceable lending agreement. [2] So that's a traditional lending agreement that is enforced by courts of justice. Maple also says they only lend to institutional and corporate borrowers [3]. In conclusion, none of these are real world examples of "borrowing and lending to other parties without the parties having to trust each other or having to wait for a slow and expensive legal system to work it out". > These all offer rates competitive or superior to traditional methods Also what do you mean by competitive rates? Note that if the borrower is getting paid interest at a rate above the market rate, the borrower is getting paid a competitive rate, but the lender is paying an uncompetitive rate. [1] https://docs.goldfinch.finance/goldfinch/general-faq https://docs.goldfinch.finance/goldfinch/general-faq [2] https://blog.trusttoken.com/introducing-truefi-the-defi-protocol-for-uncollateralized-lending-9bfd6594a48 https://blog.trusttoken.com/introducing-truefi-the-defi-prot... [3] https://maplefinance.gitbook.io/maple/protocol/borrowers https://maplefinance.gitbook.io/maple/protocol/borrowers
    - 1983054104 4y ago
      I still don't understand how this could change my life. Most people exchange money through their bank accounts for free with things like the SEPA network. I browsed through all those web sites and all I see is ways of using the crypto wallets that have to be previously created through various means incompatible with each other. Let's not talk about the "be your own bank" motto which means that you have to secure your own money which is, at least scary for most people, and at most very difficult to do even for people knowledgeable with computers. Here is something that is revolutionary and actually happened in the past 10 years: *online banks* that have no bricks-and-mortar offices! I created an account in less than 10 minutes, I have a debit card that I can use all over the world, I literally cannot spend more than what I have, and it's still a real bank which means that my account is insured if something bad ever happens. Where is the crypto equivalent?
  - charcircuit 4y ago
    You can find them by just searching but here is one that has borrowing and lending: https://valasfinance.com/markets https://valasfinance.com/markets
- m12k 4y ago
  Why is that valuable? And more importantly, how is the upside this brings bigger than the downside it brings compared to previous approaches to borrowing/lending?
  - charcircuit 4y ago
    Personally it's valuable to me because it makes it quick and easy for me to loan my money out.
- drekipus 4y ago
  like that time when there's a bug and something like 40 thousand dollars just goes to waste because ~~~ it's out of everyone's control ~~~ The issue with control is trust. The answer is to enable more trust, not to reduce the control.
  - charcircuit 4y ago
    >like that time when there's a bug and something like 40 thousand dollars just goes to waste because If you are that worried about losing the money you lent you can pay for insurance. Here are some examples. https://app.nexusmutual.io/cover https://app.nexusmutual.io/cover https://app.insurace.io/Insurance/BuyCovers https://app.insurace.io/Insurance/BuyCovers
- lottin 4y ago
  Lending requires the ability to seize assets, and the ability to seize assets requires a legal system. There's no way around it. Without this lending can't work, because otherwise the borrower can just walk away with the money.
  - charcircuit 4y ago
    >There's no way around it You can have assets on chain that can be used as collateral which can be liquidated if a loan isn't paid back. Additionally lending money is not only done so people can borrow from it. For example decentralized exchanges need a lot of liquidity in order to execute trades without very much slippage. You can provide liquidity to them and they will pay out transaction fees to you in exchange.
    - lottin 4y ago
      If you have to pledge enough collateral to cover the entirety of the principal, your net investment position is either zero or positive. In other words, you're not borrowing anything.
      - charcircuit 4y ago
        You are right in that it doesn't make much sense if your collateral is made up of stable coins, but if you had something like bitcoin you may not always want to just trade it for stable coins, do whatever, and then trade back for bitcoin as the price can change. It may be better to just deposit your bitcoin onto one of these platforms (yes you start getting paid for lending bitcoin to them for as long as you keep your bitcoins there). Then you have the ability to borrow a certain amount of some other coin without having to liquidate your bitcoin. If doing so was useless, pawnshops wouldn't exist in real life. There is value in not having to sell something and later try to rebuy it.
        lottin 4y ago
        I never said that it was useless. I said that this isn't borrowing and lending. Borrowing and lending is the primary and most important function of finance. It allows economic agents to trade future consumption for present consumption. Yet it is fundamentally impossible using blockchain technology.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

kuschku 4y ago

Smart contracts are interesting, but they're like ray traced quake was in 2004, a curiosity, a toy, something interesting that doesn't have real utility yet. These technologies are good to have in case someday they become actually useful, but the amount of energy and money spent on them today far exceeds their usefulness and is purely hype-driven. For example, there may be actual utility in NFTs: EU law requires that if you buy a game on e.g., steam, you should be able to lend it out, get it back, and resell it. If the EU, in a few years, were to decide games had to be portable between stores, and started actually enforcing these, it would make sense to put the actual game license key up as NFT and allow transfers. But that's a hypothetical. It's not what's happening today. Today's excitement is purely hype. The total energy consumption of PoW blockchains has increased global CO2 output enough that it exceeds the amount of CO2 saved by switching to renewables in the past 20 years. That's not worth it if there's such little utility in there.

lazzlazzlazz 4y ago
Like with video games, and even personal computers, often things that start off looking like toys become the next big thing in technology[1]. The properties that make them intriguing to young technologists are not appealing to older technologists, who sometimes miss the fact that these nascent tools take time to mature. [1]: https://cdixon.org/2010/01/03/the-next-big-thing-will-start-out-looking-like-a-toy https://cdixon.org/2010/01/03/the-next-big-thing-will-start-...
- kuschku 4y ago
  > Like with video games, and even personal computers, often things that start off looking like toys become the next big thing in technology That's true. But we didn't have a hype cycle spending billions and destroying the environment for Pong. We had that only once an actual market of applications for the technology appeared. Crypto isn't there yet, and likely won't be for the next few years. And likely none of today's chains will be used for these applications.