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HFT firms are re-applying a lot of techniques that worked a decade or more ago in regular markets, except now there's way less competition and way less regulati

HFT firms are re-applying a lot of techniques that worked a decade or more ago in regular markets, except now there's way less competition and way less regulation. They are making a killing right now in crypto.

bcj7393nsk 4y ago
> They are making a killing right now in crypto. HFT bonuses (many HFT firms trade crypto now) have been crazy since 2020. Even infra SWEs are making 7 figures of TC.
neatze 4y ago
In past few years, I got calls with offer to build artificial market making models (aka pump and dump) for crypto exchanges, with 7 figures payout per model + commission, I refuse to do such work, this is just disgusting, don't care how legal or illegal this is, it did not seem they have infrastructure for HFT in terms of Order Routing like it is on stock exchanges like BATS etc ...
- throwaway_1928 4y ago
  That makes you better than most people TBH.
- dehrmann 4y ago
  Is it any more disgusting than people speculating in crypto, but lying to themselves and calling it an "investing?"
  - kibwen 4y ago
    Heh, you're falling into the same trap: "speculation" is just a five-dollar word for "gambling".
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    Yes.
- mgaunard 4y ago
  It's because the markets have such bad technology that there is such opportunity to do "funny" stuff.
kasey_junk 4y ago
It’s not just HFT firms. Every professional trader in the world who got put out of business in the regular markets for being too inefficient is running old fashioned games on the crypto exchanges and making money. Watching the full depth order book on any crypto exchange is like “Back To the Future”.
- skippyboxedhero 4y ago
  Just imo, I think some of the "games" are fair play. Spoofing only became illegal when computerised trading started. When it was just humans trading electronically, everyone knew spoofing happened, the evidence was in the order book, and people traded accordingly (and, ofc, spoofing involved taking on monumental levels of risk). The rules we have are pretty bent. Everything is geared towards transparency but if algos work out your trades are actually moving the price, the liquidity is gone. So vanishing liquidity is okay, but spoofing isn't? Hiding your intention is an innate part of markets, and is a way to defend yourself against other traders. I actually support more consumer protection, the pump and dumps indicate that some consumers shouldn't be in these markets. But trading has always been the Wild West (and still is but the banditos run the town instead of the Sheriff now).
mgaunard 4y ago
To my knowledge the most money people make in crypto are from token services. Traditional HFT market-making is still somewhat competitive in crypto, and it's not helped by the fact the exchanges aren't sufficiently technologically literate to provide a fair playing ground for all participants.

bcj7393nsk 4y ago

> They are making a killing right now in crypto. HFT bonuses (many HFT firms trade crypto now) have been crazy since 2020. Even infra SWEs are making 7 figures of TC.

neatze 4y ago

In past few years, I got calls with offer to build artificial market making models (aka pump and dump) for crypto exchanges, with 7 figures payout per model + commission, I refuse to do such work, this is just disgusting, don't care how legal or illegal this is, it did not seem they have infrastructure for HFT in terms of Order Routing like it is on stock exchanges like BATS etc ...

throwaway_1928 4y ago
That makes you better than most people TBH.
dehrmann 4y ago
Is it any more disgusting than people speculating in crypto, but lying to themselves and calling it an "investing?"
- kibwen 4y ago
  Heh, you're falling into the same trap: "speculation" is just a five-dollar word for "gambling".
- unethical_ban 4y ago
  Yes.
mgaunard 4y ago
It's because the markets have such bad technology that there is such opportunity to do "funny" stuff.

kasey_junk 4y ago

It’s not just HFT firms. Every professional trader in the world who got put out of business in the regular markets for being too inefficient is running old fashioned games on the crypto exchanges and making money. Watching the full depth order book on any crypto exchange is like “Back To the Future”.

skippyboxedhero 4y ago
Just imo, I think some of the "games" are fair play. Spoofing only became illegal when computerised trading started. When it was just humans trading electronically, everyone knew spoofing happened, the evidence was in the order book, and people traded accordingly (and, ofc, spoofing involved taking on monumental levels of risk). The rules we have are pretty bent. Everything is geared towards transparency but if algos work out your trades are actually moving the price, the liquidity is gone. So vanishing liquidity is okay, but spoofing isn't? Hiding your intention is an innate part of markets, and is a way to defend yourself against other traders. I actually support more consumer protection, the pump and dumps indicate that some consumers shouldn't be in these markets. But trading has always been the Wild West (and still is but the banditos run the town instead of the Sheriff now).

mgaunard 4y ago

To my knowledge the most money people make in crypto are from token services. Traditional HFT market-making is still somewhat competitive in crypto, and it's not helped by the fact the exchanges aren't sufficiently technologically literate to provide a fair playing ground for all participants.