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> You have much more bargaining power about your work conditions as an organized union. You also give away your power as an individual to those running the un

by prirun 4y ago

> You have much more bargaining power about your work conditions as an organized union. You also give away your power as an individual to those running the union.

lozenge 4y ago
Your biggest power, the option of resigning to work somewhere else, is still with you. You just get backup from the union for when you don't want to exercise that power.
- skeeter2020 4y ago
  Well, since the original question before we got distracted was about flexibility in how you work, you definitely give that up as part of a union. Your collective agreement will spell out how, when and where you work, how much you get paid and also compel you do to things in support of the union, even if you don't agree with them. Those are all pretty big individual powers.
  - incone123 4y ago
    Since we're on the topic of remote, why do you think the union agreement would not state location of work being 'member's preference' rather than a specific location?
in_cahoots 4y ago
What power do you have as an individual in a company? Other than quitting, your leverage is extremely limited.
- Godel_unicode 4y ago
  The problem with this question is there are people, like me, for whom the answer is "a lot". I have repeatedly gotten my employer to do things for me that they would not have done on their own. They need me more than I need them, and we both know it. This is also by the way the main dissenting opinion in the recent Amazon union vote. There were several people who were interviewed by the economist as voting no, who said that they'd never had a bad interaction with HR and had gotten everything that they asked for. This is not the one-sided issue that pro-union activists act like it is, and that level of ignorance is what is holding them back.
  - JW_00000 4y ago
    Open question (I'm not American, so I don't get the full context): would you lose that bargaining power if a union was created at your workplace?
    - csande17 4y ago
      Say, for sake of argument, that I'm the World's Greatest Widget Engineer. I'm worth more than the average employee at my company, so I can get stuff I want by negotiating individually with my employer. On the other hand, if a union imposes some broad agreement on the company under threat of strikes, I can't convince my company to break that agreement on my own because I'm not more valuable than the entire rest of the company combined. A union's interests are probably not completely aligned with mine—they're focused on protecting the majority of employees, who are probably not as valuable as me—so forming a union could very easily lead to me getting less of the things I want. For example, if a union convinced a company to pay/promote based on seniority rather than performance, that could be good for most of the people in the union but bad for me.
      - kadoban 4y ago
        > A union's interests are probably not completely aligned with mine Sure, but the company's interests are almost completely opposed to yours in most ways. It's _possible_ for you to be worse off in a union, but rare.
        barry-cotter 4y ago
        > but the company's interests are almost completely opposed to yours in most ways. This really isn’t true. What you’re describing isn’t even a zero sum game it’s negative sum, where hurting the other party is among your goals in itself. The company is interested in using you to make money and for many purposes happy, satisfied employees who are growing in productivity are good. All of those are also things the employees usually want. Are employee and company interests fully aligned? Absolutely not, but if your employer’s interests are almost completely opposed to yours get out.
hiddencost 4y ago
I'll refrain from ruder responses and point to the weekend as a lovely innovation powered by unions. How did you get so intensely in thrall of the people holding your collar?
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  They have weekends in China and it’s not because of any labor movement. Working conditions and compensation increase because of supply and demand dynamics, which unions are a part of but not necessary for. For another example of countries that do not tolerate independent labor movements where economic growth led to better working conditions see Vietnam.
  - Insanity 4y ago
    Weekends in China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
  - astrange 4y ago
    "Not because of any labor movement" is a strange way to describe a communist government.
    - barry-cotter 4y ago
      Why? A totalitarian/authoritarian government that bans strikes where all worker’s organizations work hand in glove with the government and management describes fascist and communist approaches to unions perfectly. The historical roots of the ruling party are hardly relevant.
  - design-material 4y ago
    You realise it's commonplace *not* to have weekends in China, right? On the basis of your logic that's a consequence of the lack of union and organised labour
    - 4y ago
ben_w 4y ago
In much the same way that “getting a lawyer” gives away one’s power in a courtroom.
- csande17 4y ago
  It's more like joining a class action settlement.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  Your lawyer is your agent. A lawyer representing a group of which you are a part is representing the group, and your interests and the groups can diverge.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    That divergence can happen with a personal lawyer, too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal–agent_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal–agent_problem The reason an employee may want to join a union is because this divergence has already happened between the employee and the employer.
    - barry-cotter 4y ago
      The union is also a worker’s agent. It’s monitoring problems all the way down.
andrekandre 4y ago
> You also give away your power as an individual to those running the union. ideally it would be run by the members, not necessarily by another boss
- ddingus 4y ago
  Indeed. One indicator as to whether members are running the union is to see whether the strike fund is well funded. If it is, that union is very likely to be at a minimum involving the rank and file in it's operations and negotiations. No strike fund? Be careful. A union without a well funded strike fund basically has very little power.
marricks 4y ago
What power? You as an individual employee have absolutely no power to change Apple's behavior. Case in point the director of this story quitting because they couldn't convince Apple to change. As the other comment mentioned the biggest individual power you have is quitting and a union doesn't prevent that.

by prirun 4y ago

> You have much more bargaining power about your work conditions as an organized union. You also give away your power as an individual to those running the union.

lozenge 4y ago

Your biggest power, the option of resigning to work somewhere else, is still with you. You just get backup from the union for when you don't want to exercise that power.

skeeter2020 4y ago
Well, since the original question before we got distracted was about flexibility in how you work, you definitely give that up as part of a union. Your collective agreement will spell out how, when and where you work, how much you get paid and also compel you do to things in support of the union, even if you don't agree with them. Those are all pretty big individual powers.
- incone123 4y ago
  Since we're on the topic of remote, why do you think the union agreement would not state location of work being 'member's preference' rather than a specific location?

in_cahoots 4y ago

What power do you have as an individual in a company? Other than quitting, your leverage is extremely limited.

Godel_unicode 4y ago
The problem with this question is there are people, like me, for whom the answer is "a lot". I have repeatedly gotten my employer to do things for me that they would not have done on their own. They need me more than I need them, and we both know it. This is also by the way the main dissenting opinion in the recent Amazon union vote. There were several people who were interviewed by the economist as voting no, who said that they'd never had a bad interaction with HR and had gotten everything that they asked for. This is not the one-sided issue that pro-union activists act like it is, and that level of ignorance is what is holding them back.
- JW_00000 4y ago
  Open question (I'm not American, so I don't get the full context): would you lose that bargaining power if a union was created at your workplace?
  - csande17 4y ago
    Say, for sake of argument, that I'm the World's Greatest Widget Engineer. I'm worth more than the average employee at my company, so I can get stuff I want by negotiating individually with my employer. On the other hand, if a union imposes some broad agreement on the company under threat of strikes, I can't convince my company to break that agreement on my own because I'm not more valuable than the entire rest of the company combined. A union's interests are probably not completely aligned with mine—they're focused on protecting the majority of employees, who are probably not as valuable as me—so forming a union could very easily lead to me getting less of the things I want. For example, if a union convinced a company to pay/promote based on seniority rather than performance, that could be good for most of the people in the union but bad for me.
    - kadoban 4y ago
      > A union's interests are probably not completely aligned with mine Sure, but the company's interests are almost completely opposed to yours in most ways. It's _possible_ for you to be worse off in a union, but rare.
      - barry-cotter 4y ago
        > but the company's interests are almost completely opposed to yours in most ways. This really isn’t true. What you’re describing isn’t even a zero sum game it’s negative sum, where hurting the other party is among your goals in itself. The company is interested in using you to make money and for many purposes happy, satisfied employees who are growing in productivity are good. All of those are also things the employees usually want. Are employee and company interests fully aligned? Absolutely not, but if your employer’s interests are almost completely opposed to yours get out.

hiddencost 4y ago

I'll refrain from ruder responses and point to the weekend as a lovely innovation powered by unions. How did you get so intensely in thrall of the people holding your collar?

barry-cotter 4y ago
They have weekends in China and it’s not because of any labor movement. Working conditions and compensation increase because of supply and demand dynamics, which unions are a part of but not necessary for. For another example of countries that do not tolerate independent labor movements where economic growth led to better working conditions see Vietnam.
- Insanity 4y ago
  Weekends in China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
- astrange 4y ago
  "Not because of any labor movement" is a strange way to describe a communist government.
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    Why? A totalitarian/authoritarian government that bans strikes where all worker’s organizations work hand in glove with the government and management describes fascist and communist approaches to unions perfectly. The historical roots of the ruling party are hardly relevant.
- design-material 4y ago
  You realise it's commonplace *not* to have weekends in China, right? On the basis of your logic that's a consequence of the lack of union and organised labour
  - 4y ago

ben_w 4y ago

In much the same way that “getting a lawyer” gives away one’s power in a courtroom.

csande17 4y ago
It's more like joining a class action settlement.
barry-cotter 4y ago
Your lawyer is your agent. A lawyer representing a group of which you are a part is representing the group, and your interests and the groups can diverge.
- ben_w 4y ago
  That divergence can happen with a personal lawyer, too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal–agent_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal–agent_problem The reason an employee may want to join a union is because this divergence has already happened between the employee and the employer.
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    The union is also a worker’s agent. It’s monitoring problems all the way down.

andrekandre 4y ago

> You also give away your power as an individual to those running the union. ideally it would be run by the members, not necessarily by another boss

ddingus 4y ago
Indeed. One indicator as to whether members are running the union is to see whether the strike fund is well funded. If it is, that union is very likely to be at a minimum involving the rank and file in it's operations and negotiations. No strike fund? Be careful. A union without a well funded strike fund basically has very little power.

marricks 4y ago

What power? You as an individual employee have absolutely no power to change Apple's behavior. Case in point the director of this story quitting because they couldn't convince Apple to change. As the other comment mentioned the biggest individual power you have is quitting and a union doesn't prevent that.