8 ms·

nobody appreciates the good parts of something until they are gone then the bad parts don't seem so bad anymore

by jeisc 4y ago

skippyboxedhero 4y ago
Polling data suggests otherwise. Support for re-joining has dropped like a stone. I voted Remain, and that decision makes little sense in retrospect (not none, it was just a lot of the fearmongering turned out to be false). The bad parts of the EU are far more evident now we are out of it. To most Brits...the EU just seems a bit mad (and did before btw, it was just that many Brits believed the EU would change). I don't think any Brits know what "the good parts" are (again, this was true before 2016 too, we weren't in the EU for "the good parts"...there weren't any for Britain, we didn't need to shed guilt like Germany, we didn't need to use trade barriers to gain competitiveness like Italy or Spain, we didn't need to use to elevate our global profile like France). Ofc, the points made in the article are nonsensical...but it is the Economist. Saying that Ukraine has demonstrated the importance of Europe is...comic. The economic points are totally illogical...look at Europe's banks, look at the UK's banks, monetary policy, the values are just totally different.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  What are the evidently bad parts of EU that you come to realize once out? I'm also puzzled by your claim that support for re-join has dropped because as it happens, it actually didn't change much and the latest polls suggest that re-join has the lead[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_Kingdom_rejoining_the_European_Union_(2020–present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_...
  - thinkingemote 4y ago
    Not who you are replying to, one little heard "worsening EU" factor I have read is the rise of far right political parties in most EU states. The implication is that the EU might be controlled by the very problematic far right, and so the UK outside of it would be insulated from any issues. I don't think we've seen any EU wide political effects because of the rise of the far right in Europe. But I find the idea an interesting one that's being aired by some in the UK. Yes, Europe is seeing the hard right and populism growing but no it's not a problem yet at the continent level as far as I know.
    - mrtksn 4y ago
      Isn't UK controlled by the very problematic far-right since Brexit(every major pre-2016 far right figure had or has an important post in the government)? Wasn't Farage(far righter) who caused issues in the EU up until he lost his position. I mean, I lost track of political scandals in the UK. It's a strange argument that I don't see how it could have played out had the UK remained.
      - blibble 4y ago
        > Isn't UK controlled by the very problematic far-right since Brexit no, the Conservatives are centre right, and very much left of the democrats > Wasn't Farage(far righter) who caused issues in the EU up until he lost his position no, his party never managed anything other than annoying the people running the parliament
        MattPalmer1086 4y ago
        The conservatives have moved much further to the right, by absorbing UKIP voters to win on Brexit. So while Farage never won political power himself he certainly moved the political window rightwards. I would not call the Conservatives centrist in any sense. They may appear further to the left on some issues than the US, but only because they would not win if they were honest about their intentions (e.g. privatise the NHS).
        blibble 4y ago
        and yet somehow it was Labour that did the most to privatise the NHS with the dreadful PFI contracts
        MattPalmer1086 4y ago
        Yeah, PFI was dreadful. I don't think they wanted wholesale privatisation, but the Blair years were certainly more right than Labour generally is.
      - 4y ago
  - skippyboxedhero 4y ago
    Non-sensical regulations, increasing extreme politics, continued economic problems (essentially none of the structural issues in 2012 are solved, the "solution" was: borrow more...it is worrying), lack of leadership in foreign policy...or lack of anything but self-serving nonsense (as with Iran, the EU leading the way on sanction-busting), increasing corporatism, heavy centralisation. Fundamentally, the UK is just going in a different direction. Staying in the EU isn't helpful for the EU or the UK. But the EU approach of: you should be inside the tent pissing out rather than outside the tent being pissed on by us...is idiotic (if the history of the 20th century didn't tell you how that ended for Europe). Those aren't recent. The data varies heavily by question asked, and tends not to consider the trend. People don't want a second referendum (they elected a govt on a significant majority on that basis, for some reason people tend to just ignore the fact that the public did have a second vote after 2016...the result was even more emphatic).
    - mrtksn 4y ago
      Do you have something specific. For example, for things getting bad I can give you the example of roaming charges being re-introduced. Corporatism, centralisation kind of things are big words that need explanation. It's like saying that it's red, blue and white Brexit. How poetic but what does it mean? For example, since UK leaving EU, did the UK abolish corporations and become agrarian civilisation where everyone works for themselves? If so, what exactly prevented UK doing it before leaving the EU? Did UK abolish the central government and gave power back to the local governments? If so, what exactly was stoping UK doing it when in EU? > Those aren't recent Okay, please provide the data you are basing your opinions on.
      - skippyboxedhero 4y ago
        Roaming charges haven't been re-introduced by providers. They don't need explanation...that is why the terms exist. The EU is run by large corporations. The EU is heavily centralised. Ah, so you don't understand what corporatism means...so then use some ludicrous analogy, but you don't understand that just highlights your own ignorance. And yes, the UK is giving power back to local govts. Nothing was stopping that before, but the point of being in the EU is that you are in the EU, which centralises political authority away from voters...again, I suspect that sounded better in your head. Tell me what political party has a policy of re-joining the EU, and how much vote share they are getting at the moment? The polling on the exact question is exactly the same as it was in 2016 (that will probably fall back to where it was last year through the rest of this year) but if you look at polling on whether people want a second referendum or whether they view rejoining the EU as likely, it is clear (if the result of the "second vote" in 2019 wasn't).
- audunw 4y ago
  > we didn't need to use trade barriers to gain competitiveness No but Britain sure needed to be allowed to use British Overseas Territories like Cayman Island to facilitate systematic tax evasion.
  - skippyboxedhero 4y ago
    A strange comment given that EU tax havens are responsible for the largest amount of tax avoidance globally, and that avoidance was organised (often secretly) by govts. Britain does not have control over BOTs, and we have tried to bring them up to the UK standards of tax avoidance. Hopefully EU govts will join that effort and stop using tax evasion as a competitive advantage.
  - blibble 4y ago
    when talking about the EU, the elephant in the room is Ireland, full of Irish companies like: - Google - Microsoft - Amazon and countless others
    - disgruntledphd2 4y ago
      Meta, Intel, Salesforce, TikTok, Pfizer, Apple etc. It's worth noting that Amazon are actually tax resident in Luxembourg rather than Ireland, because it makes more sense for their business.
- iso1631 4y ago
  Polling you're wrong [0] The "Not join" lead from 2020 has vanished and replaced with a "rejoin" lead, about a 5 point swing over the last 2 years. As to the effects, you clearly haven't tried to ship anything between the UK and the mainland, even with the controls still not in place [3]. "LSE finds one-third decline in trading relationships under Boris Johnson’s deal – which has hit small firms hardest" [1] Even Rees-Mogg agrees brexit red tape is a disaster [2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_Kingdom_rejoining_the_European_Union_(2020%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_... [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-red-tape-exports-lse-b2065540.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-red-ta... [2] https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1519691770736558081 https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/15196917707365580... [3] https://www.cityam.com/uk-delays-checks-brexit-checks-on-eu-imports-for-a-third-time/ https://www.cityam.com/uk-delays-checks-brexit-checks-on-eu-...
  - skippyboxedhero 4y ago
    Which varies based on what question is asked. Yes, I have. What am I supposed to have noticed? I used to work in equity research, I still follow companies that trade in Europe...have seen no mention of Brexit yet, it just doesn't appear to have been a significant event. If I had something to say about it, I would be able tell you...but it just wasn't a big event. By "brexit red tape", you should clarify: regulations that weren't brought in and so have had no impact. I don't think anyone would deny that food and drink hasn't been impacted (inevitable, the EU has a strange xenophobia about "foreign" food...that seems to respect arbitrary political demarcations) but even in fresh, it has been surprisingly limited. Companies that failed to prepare suffered...but such is life, companies that failed to prepare for the global rise in freight costs have also suffered.
    - iso1631 4y ago
      You clearly haven't had to move goods between europe and the UK then. Or had to queue up in Kent.
  - native_samples 4y ago
- raverbashing 4y ago
  > I don't think any Brits know what "the good parts" are Some are finding it now when they get bounced off a flight for an (almost) expired passport, when their phone bill is high after going to an EU country, or when they can't bring their pets on vacation, etc Or if they are a smaller company that have seen their sales share to the EU plummet
  - strongbond 4y ago
    But then, we have a more direct democratic choice over the politicians that make decisions for us. For me, this is worth more than the niggles you've mentioned.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - skippyboxedhero 4y ago
    The reason why passports aren't getting issued is because of unionised govt employees refusing to return to work (this is one of those weird things you see Europeans discuss a lot online, why has this been linked to Brexit? It is very strange...are you telling me the EU doesn't let in Americans or Brazilians? Odd xenophobia, I thought Europe was over that phase). You can free roaming. Who takes their pet on vacation? That hasn't happened. Even in food and drink, you would have expected to see an impact...it hasn't happened.
    - raverbashing 4y ago
      The delay in passport issues is of course due to Covid and holidays rebounding, but the fact that it wasn't that important before is due to brexit obviously. > Who takes their pet on vacation? > A Brexiteer Tory MP has urged the government to let his dogs keep their freedom of movement rights after Britain leaves the EU. Bob Stewart, the MP for Beckenham, said his "French-speaking" hounds crossed the Channel regularly on their EU "pet passports". https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-tory-mp-bob-stewart-dog-pet-passport-france-channel-a9569231.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-tory-m...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- TMWNN 4y ago
  >I voted Remain, and that decision makes little sense in retrospect (not none, it was just a lot of the fearmongering turned out to be false). Indeed. Weren't you and other Britons supposed to be fighting over cans of food in a Max Max-style "anarchy in the UK" situation by now? I especially loved the glee—yes, glee—shown by Remainers when there was a shortage of truck drivers. *PROOF* that Brexit was a colossal mistake!!!!1!!!1!! As opposed to COVID19-related staff shortages that also affected the continent.
- Markoff 4y ago
  Indeed, I didn't understand Brexiters back then, now after seeing EU approach to "pandemic" and two 3rd world countries conflict in Eastern Europe (TLDR EU shown how useless it is for my life in both scenarios), I would for sure vote to leave in EU country I reside for years, ironically I'm not even citizen here yet and my wife is not from EU.
- atc 4y ago

nobody appreciates the good parts of something until they are gone then the bad parts don't seem so bad anymore

by jeisc 4y ago

nobody appreciates the good parts of something until they are gone then the bad parts don't seem so bad anymore

Polling data suggests otherwise. Support for re-joining has dropped like a stone. I voted Remain, and that decision makes little sense in retrospect (not none, it was just a lot of the fearmongering turned out to be false). The bad parts of the EU are far more evident now we are out of it. To most Brits...the EU just seems a bit mad (and did before btw, it was just that many Brits believed the EU would change). I don't think any Brits know what "the good parts" are (again, this was true before 2016 too, we weren't in the EU for "the good parts"...there weren't any for Britain, we didn't need to shed guilt like Germany, we didn't need to use trade barriers to gain competitiveness like Italy or Spain, we didn't need to use to elevate our global profile like France). Ofc, the points made in the article are nonsensical...but it is the Economist. Saying that Ukraine has demonstrated the importance of Europe is...comic. The economic points are totally illogical...look at Europe's banks, look at the UK's banks, monetary policy, the values are just totally different.

mrtksn 4y ago
What are the evidently bad parts of EU that you come to realize once out? I'm also puzzled by your claim that support for re-join has dropped because as it happens, it actually didn't change much and the latest polls suggest that re-join has the lead[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_Kingdom_rejoining_the_European_Union_(2020–present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_...
- thinkingemote 4y ago
  Not who you are replying to, one little heard "worsening EU" factor I have read is the rise of far right political parties in most EU states. The implication is that the EU might be controlled by the very problematic far right, and so the UK outside of it would be insulated from any issues. I don't think we've seen any EU wide political effects because of the rise of the far right in Europe. But I find the idea an interesting one that's being aired by some in the UK. Yes, Europe is seeing the hard right and populism growing but no it's not a problem yet at the continent level as far as I know.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    Isn't UK controlled by the very problematic far-right since Brexit(every major pre-2016 far right figure had or has an important post in the government)? Wasn't Farage(far righter) who caused issues in the EU up until he lost his position. I mean, I lost track of political scandals in the UK. It's a strange argument that I don't see how it could have played out had the UK remained.
    - blibble 4y ago
      > Isn't UK controlled by the very problematic far-right since Brexit no, the Conservatives are centre right, and very much left of the democrats > Wasn't Farage(far righter) who caused issues in the EU up until he lost his position no, his party never managed anything other than annoying the people running the parliament
      - MattPalmer1086 4y ago
        The conservatives have moved much further to the right, by absorbing UKIP voters to win on Brexit. So while Farage never won political power himself he certainly moved the political window rightwards. I would not call the Conservatives centrist in any sense. They may appear further to the left on some issues than the US, but only because they would not win if they were honest about their intentions (e.g. privatise the NHS).
        blibble 4y ago
        and yet somehow it was Labour that did the most to privatise the NHS with the dreadful PFI contracts
        MattPalmer1086 4y ago
        Yeah, PFI was dreadful. I don't think they wanted wholesale privatisation, but the Blair years were certainly more right than Labour generally is.
    - 4y ago
- skippyboxedhero 4y ago
  Non-sensical regulations, increasing extreme politics, continued economic problems (essentially none of the structural issues in 2012 are solved, the "solution" was: borrow more...it is worrying), lack of leadership in foreign policy...or lack of anything but self-serving nonsense (as with Iran, the EU leading the way on sanction-busting), increasing corporatism, heavy centralisation. Fundamentally, the UK is just going in a different direction. Staying in the EU isn't helpful for the EU or the UK. But the EU approach of: you should be inside the tent pissing out rather than outside the tent being pissed on by us...is idiotic (if the history of the 20th century didn't tell you how that ended for Europe). Those aren't recent. The data varies heavily by question asked, and tends not to consider the trend. People don't want a second referendum (they elected a govt on a significant majority on that basis, for some reason people tend to just ignore the fact that the public did have a second vote after 2016...the result was even more emphatic).
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    Do you have something specific. For example, for things getting bad I can give you the example of roaming charges being re-introduced. Corporatism, centralisation kind of things are big words that need explanation. It's like saying that it's red, blue and white Brexit. How poetic but what does it mean? For example, since UK leaving EU, did the UK abolish corporations and become agrarian civilisation where everyone works for themselves? If so, what exactly prevented UK doing it before leaving the EU? Did UK abolish the central government and gave power back to the local governments? If so, what exactly was stoping UK doing it when in EU? > Those aren't recent Okay, please provide the data you are basing your opinions on.
    - skippyboxedhero 4y ago
      Roaming charges haven't been re-introduced by providers. They don't need explanation...that is why the terms exist. The EU is run by large corporations. The EU is heavily centralised. Ah, so you don't understand what corporatism means...so then use some ludicrous analogy, but you don't understand that just highlights your own ignorance. And yes, the UK is giving power back to local govts. Nothing was stopping that before, but the point of being in the EU is that you are in the EU, which centralises political authority away from voters...again, I suspect that sounded better in your head. Tell me what political party has a policy of re-joining the EU, and how much vote share they are getting at the moment? The polling on the exact question is exactly the same as it was in 2016 (that will probably fall back to where it was last year through the rest of this year) but if you look at polling on whether people want a second referendum or whether they view rejoining the EU as likely, it is clear (if the result of the "second vote" in 2019 wasn't).
audunw 4y ago
> we didn't need to use trade barriers to gain competitiveness No but Britain sure needed to be allowed to use British Overseas Territories like Cayman Island to facilitate systematic tax evasion.
- skippyboxedhero 4y ago
  A strange comment given that EU tax havens are responsible for the largest amount of tax avoidance globally, and that avoidance was organised (often secretly) by govts. Britain does not have control over BOTs, and we have tried to bring them up to the UK standards of tax avoidance. Hopefully EU govts will join that effort and stop using tax evasion as a competitive advantage.
- blibble 4y ago
  when talking about the EU, the elephant in the room is Ireland, full of Irish companies like: - Google - Microsoft - Amazon and countless others
  - disgruntledphd2 4y ago
    Meta, Intel, Salesforce, TikTok, Pfizer, Apple etc. It's worth noting that Amazon are actually tax resident in Luxembourg rather than Ireland, because it makes more sense for their business.
iso1631 4y ago
Polling you're wrong [0] The "Not join" lead from 2020 has vanished and replaced with a "rejoin" lead, about a 5 point swing over the last 2 years. As to the effects, you clearly haven't tried to ship anything between the UK and the mainland, even with the controls still not in place [3]. "LSE finds one-third decline in trading relationships under Boris Johnson’s deal – which has hit small firms hardest" [1] Even Rees-Mogg agrees brexit red tape is a disaster [2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_Kingdom_rejoining_the_European_Union_(2020%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_... [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-red-tape-exports-lse-b2065540.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-red-ta... [2] https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1519691770736558081 https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/15196917707365580... [3] https://www.cityam.com/uk-delays-checks-brexit-checks-on-eu-imports-for-a-third-time/ https://www.cityam.com/uk-delays-checks-brexit-checks-on-eu-...
- skippyboxedhero 4y ago
  Which varies based on what question is asked. Yes, I have. What am I supposed to have noticed? I used to work in equity research, I still follow companies that trade in Europe...have seen no mention of Brexit yet, it just doesn't appear to have been a significant event. If I had something to say about it, I would be able tell you...but it just wasn't a big event. By "brexit red tape", you should clarify: regulations that weren't brought in and so have had no impact. I don't think anyone would deny that food and drink hasn't been impacted (inevitable, the EU has a strange xenophobia about "foreign" food...that seems to respect arbitrary political demarcations) but even in fresh, it has been surprisingly limited. Companies that failed to prepare suffered...but such is life, companies that failed to prepare for the global rise in freight costs have also suffered.
  - iso1631 4y ago
    You clearly haven't had to move goods between europe and the UK then. Or had to queue up in Kent.
- native_samples 4y ago
raverbashing 4y ago
> I don't think any Brits know what "the good parts" are Some are finding it now when they get bounced off a flight for an (almost) expired passport, when their phone bill is high after going to an EU country, or when they can't bring their pets on vacation, etc Or if they are a smaller company that have seen their sales share to the EU plummet
- strongbond 4y ago
  But then, we have a more direct democratic choice over the politicians that make decisions for us. For me, this is worth more than the niggles you've mentioned.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- skippyboxedhero 4y ago
  The reason why passports aren't getting issued is because of unionised govt employees refusing to return to work (this is one of those weird things you see Europeans discuss a lot online, why has this been linked to Brexit? It is very strange...are you telling me the EU doesn't let in Americans or Brazilians? Odd xenophobia, I thought Europe was over that phase). You can free roaming. Who takes their pet on vacation? That hasn't happened. Even in food and drink, you would have expected to see an impact...it hasn't happened.
  - raverbashing 4y ago
    The delay in passport issues is of course due to Covid and holidays rebounding, but the fact that it wasn't that important before is due to brexit obviously. > Who takes their pet on vacation? > A Brexiteer Tory MP has urged the government to let his dogs keep their freedom of movement rights after Britain leaves the EU. Bob Stewart, the MP for Beckenham, said his "French-speaking" hounds crossed the Channel regularly on their EU "pet passports". https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-tory-mp-bob-stewart-dog-pet-passport-france-channel-a9569231.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-tory-m...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
TMWNN 4y ago
>I voted Remain, and that decision makes little sense in retrospect (not none, it was just a lot of the fearmongering turned out to be false). Indeed. Weren't you and other Britons supposed to be fighting over cans of food in a Max Max-style "anarchy in the UK" situation by now? I especially loved the glee—yes, glee—shown by Remainers when there was a shortage of truck drivers. *PROOF* that Brexit was a colossal mistake!!!!1!!!1!! As opposed to COVID19-related staff shortages that also affected the continent.
Markoff 4y ago
Indeed, I didn't understand Brexiters back then, now after seeing EU approach to "pandemic" and two 3rd world countries conflict in Eastern Europe (TLDR EU shown how useless it is for my life in both scenarios), I would for sure vote to leave in EU country I reside for years, ironically I'm not even citizen here yet and my wife is not from EU.
atc 4y ago