22 ms·

Britain has become unexpectedly European

41 points by asdadsdad 4y ago

vegai_ 4y ago
Perhaps they should join the Union. I'm sure they'd qualify after some changes.
- secondcoming 4y ago
  Looking at what's happening with Germany I suspect the EU would dearly love the UK back involved. It's quite noticable that the doom-porn regarding Brexit has now died down. It's gone from 'the shelves are empty' to 'person's passport was rejected'.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    Yes, EU and UK got a deal so it's all cool now, therefore no empty shelves - just increased bureaucracy and red tape in trade. However, UK claims that the deal they signed is a shitty deal and they are expected to break it. Things can start moving again.
- tinktank 4y ago
  heh.
- jollybean 4y ago
  Why would they, join an economic union that has a political layers with negative benefits? Better to partner with Norway, Switzerland, to develop some kind of meaningful coherence on trade issues with the EU and especially focus 1) on the US, the current superpower where there's obviously deep resonance 2) and especially Asia where all of the growth is, particularly India, Singapore and Hong Kong where UK has deep ties. Joining EU makes sense for Ukraine and even Serbia, not necessarily others.
  - jka 4y ago
    You can see the EU a little bit like a microservice mesh standard; once your microservice is integrated, data flows, resource sharing, statistics/observability, and so on become easier in various ways, although you may have to adapt to common standards. In legal and practical terms, the UK is still currently strongly compatible with the EU, despite Brexit. Another way to look at the situation: the UK is currently in an early fork stage of the codebase, and remains more-or-less compatible. The biggest opportunity from Brexit -- which, strangely, may not only be available to the UK, but also to keen observers within the EU -- is the chance to introduce some local code changes without all the usual code review stages and interface negotiations. Will everything that the UK does as a result create improvements? No: plenty of these attempted changes will fail -- some badly -- and hopefully we'll all learn from those mistakes. But there will certainly also be policy and procedural changes that result in unquestionable improvements that are re-usable elsewhere. (disclaimer/context: I believe that Brexit was a mistake in economic and political terms, but that the UK could eventually rejoin the EU if-and/or-when the upsides are clearer to people, and that it's an opportunity to learn)
    - not2b 4y ago
      Alternatively, parts of the UK could break off and rejoin the EU (e.g. Scotland). I can't predict whether this will happen or not.
      - pavlov 4y ago
        Also the unification of Ireland might be closer than ever. Sinn Fein, the former political wing of the IRA, won elections in North Ireland yesterday: https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/northern-ireland-poised-watershed-election-result-counting-begins-2022-05-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/northern-ireland-poised-wat... I don't pretend to be an expert on Irish politics. It's unclear to me whether the Republic really even wants North Ireland given its lackluster economy. Maybe it's easier to have London keep sending billions there.
        VictorPath 4y ago
- _Microft 4y ago
  Sure, why not - as long as they do not ask for special treatment?
  - masklinn 4y ago
    > as long as they do not ask for special treatment? They certainly could ask. They wouldn't get it because at this point they have negative leverage and I'd assume Brussels is at best mildly irritated by Downing Street.
    - _Microft 4y ago
      The implied joke was that this would have been another advantage that they squandered with Brexit because they did get special treatment before leaving.
blibble 4y ago
using the massive temporary increase in covid spending to try to assert that the Conservatives are now suddenly into big spending seems like a stretch Boris didn't necessarily like big spending... he had to or the economy would have collapsed their sources are... somewhat europhile too (ex-EU commissioner, pro-EU think tank, and former EU diplomat)
- avianlyric 4y ago
  > Boris didn't necessarily like big spending... Not sure that’s true. One of the first things Boris did after Brexit was start pushing hard on infrastructure spending with projects like HS2 (already on the books, but Boris explicitly threw his weight behind it, and got rid of objectors) and “levelling up” the north. Think Boris realised that all those labour voters that voted for him wouldn’t hang around unless he substantially improved the quality of life outside of London. Big infrastructure projects are the obvious path to take. Boris also increased business rates as well, along with being caught saying “fuck business”. Boris isn’t your standard conservative, looking for economic stability or growth. He’s only interested in what keeps him in Number 10. And big spending up North looked like a pretty good strategy. Who cares about ROI for the tax payer, when it’s gonna keep him in office? Personally think the spending is/was a good thing on the whole. But I really don’t like Boris, and his complete lack of any conviction, except his conviction of reminding in Number 10.
  - Bellend 4y ago
    Not looking for an argument, what did "levelling up" mean?
    - incone123 4y ago
      I think it was about regions further from London becoming more prosperous, partly through development of transport links and broadband internet
    - lifeisstillgood 4y ago
      There is actually a minister for "levelling up" - Michael Gove IIRR and he is making some hay with it. The idea is that Britain is massively massively centered around London Metro Area. And the regions suffer lack of investment, brain drain, lack of jobs as a result. The idea is to "level up" the rest of the UK to London levels (seen as a big Brexit lodestone) However, 1. no extra actual money seems to be allocated to it, 2. it's not quite clear how to do it. 30 years ago the surprisingly prescient comedy show Yes Prime Minister had a similar idea, to move the Army up North and spark new job creation. It would take massive scale action to do this - tax incentives, infrastructure, etc. It's worth noting that we have to spend vast vast sums to become climate neutral (revamp most housing infrastructure to be heat efficient, get rid gas boilers, replace the car fleet, move to vegetarian diets). So we could just spend that money in a different part of the country. And it's also worth pointing out that only Germany has this kind of levelled society - mostly because for 50 years Berlin was a no go area so Hamburg and other cities got an industry each (Frankfurt got finance etc). Paris, Rome, Madrid all have similar "Black Hole" status
jeisc 4y ago
nobody appreciates the good parts of something until they are gone then the bad parts don't seem so bad anymore
- skippyboxedhero 4y ago
  Polling data suggests otherwise. Support for re-joining has dropped like a stone. I voted Remain, and that decision makes little sense in retrospect (not none, it was just a lot of the fearmongering turned out to be false). The bad parts of the EU are far more evident now we are out of it. To most Brits...the EU just seems a bit mad (and did before btw, it was just that many Brits believed the EU would change). I don't think any Brits know what "the good parts" are (again, this was true before 2016 too, we weren't in the EU for "the good parts"...there weren't any for Britain, we didn't need to shed guilt like Germany, we didn't need to use trade barriers to gain competitiveness like Italy or Spain, we didn't need to use to elevate our global profile like France). Ofc, the points made in the article are nonsensical...but it is the Economist. Saying that Ukraine has demonstrated the importance of Europe is...comic. The economic points are totally illogical...look at Europe's banks, look at the UK's banks, monetary policy, the values are just totally different.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    What are the evidently bad parts of EU that you come to realize once out? I'm also puzzled by your claim that support for re-join has dropped because as it happens, it actually didn't change much and the latest polls suggest that re-join has the lead[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_Kingdom_rejoining_the_European_Union_(2020–present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_...
    - thinkingemote 4y ago
      Not who you are replying to, one little heard "worsening EU" factor I have read is the rise of far right political parties in most EU states. The implication is that the EU might be controlled by the very problematic far right, and so the UK outside of it would be insulated from any issues. I don't think we've seen any EU wide political effects because of the rise of the far right in Europe. But I find the idea an interesting one that's being aired by some in the UK. Yes, Europe is seeing the hard right and populism growing but no it's not a problem yet at the continent level as far as I know.
heythere22 4y ago
https://archive.ph/o58hG https://archive.ph/o58hG
vanderZwan 4y ago
The idea that the EU imposes massive amounts of red tape when no other instition I know of has done more to reduce it in the last century is just absolutely mindboggling to me. Is it so hard to grasp that standardizing regulations among dozens of countries with the explicit goals of making it easier to trade, travel, work and live in foreign countries, inevitably leads to reduced red tape?
- thaway2839 4y ago
  Exactly this. The EU may be the greatest red tape destroyer ever created. The single market has led to many many landfills not being filled due to the paper that trade before the single market would have generated.
  - blibble 4y ago
    just ignore the 200 cookie warnings every citizen sees per day
    - dijit 4y ago
      Those cookie warnings are intentionally annoying, it's malicious compliance in the hopes that people get bored of them and click ok. If an annoying cookie pop-up does not close (with an opt out) in 2 clicks, it's illegal; that's part of GDPR because of this malicious compliance. (making people click each option individually).
    - throw0101a 4y ago
      > just ignore the 200 cookie warnings every citizen sees per day Would you rather be ignorant of the fact that you're being tracked with 200 cookies? Why is it the EU's fault that companies have so much tracking? Perhaps you should complain to the companies that are sending you the cookies and not the EU that's simply bringing to light a shady business practice.
      - Markoff 4y ago
        >Would you rather be ignorant of the fact that you're being tracked with 200 cookies? Yes? I know I'm tracked and I know I can do nothing about it besides accepting the annoying cookie warning, so it's pretty much meaningless unless there is option Reject All. If you must always allow at least "essential" cookies them it's while warning meaningless. Either show me no warning or give me Reject all button, nothing in between, otherwise it just shows your incompetence to solve the problem. It's as meaningful as permanent sign "There is traffic jam on this road", though that sign one would be less annoying. I always loved in some subway system in Asia regular PSA "There were pickpocketers detected in subway system", really helpful... Dunno whether it was India or HK or somewhere.
rossdavidh 4y ago
"Some observers hope that working with European allies on Ukraine could presage a mending of fences with the EU. Peter Mandelson, another former British EU commissioner, noted at a recent CER seminar that Ukraine had shattered the British illusion that it could turn its back on Europe when it comes to security, though he added that it would take a new prime minister to accept this obvious conclusion..." This seems like an odd statement to me. I was not aware of any UK push to diverge from NATO, only the EU, and NATO is far more involved in security affairs than the EU. In fact, the UK spends more (as a % of GDP) on security than almost any other western European economy; only France comes close.

41 points by asdadsdad 4y ago

vegai_ 4y ago

Perhaps they should join the Union. I'm sure they'd qualify after some changes.

secondcoming 4y ago
Looking at what's happening with Germany I suspect the EU would dearly love the UK back involved. It's quite noticable that the doom-porn regarding Brexit has now died down. It's gone from 'the shelves are empty' to 'person's passport was rejected'.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  Yes, EU and UK got a deal so it's all cool now, therefore no empty shelves - just increased bureaucracy and red tape in trade. However, UK claims that the deal they signed is a shitty deal and they are expected to break it. Things can start moving again.
tinktank 4y ago
heh.
jollybean 4y ago
Why would they, join an economic union that has a political layers with negative benefits? Better to partner with Norway, Switzerland, to develop some kind of meaningful coherence on trade issues with the EU and especially focus 1) on the US, the current superpower where there's obviously deep resonance 2) and especially Asia where all of the growth is, particularly India, Singapore and Hong Kong where UK has deep ties. Joining EU makes sense for Ukraine and even Serbia, not necessarily others.
- jka 4y ago
  You can see the EU a little bit like a microservice mesh standard; once your microservice is integrated, data flows, resource sharing, statistics/observability, and so on become easier in various ways, although you may have to adapt to common standards. In legal and practical terms, the UK is still currently strongly compatible with the EU, despite Brexit. Another way to look at the situation: the UK is currently in an early fork stage of the codebase, and remains more-or-less compatible. The biggest opportunity from Brexit -- which, strangely, may not only be available to the UK, but also to keen observers within the EU -- is the chance to introduce some local code changes without all the usual code review stages and interface negotiations. Will everything that the UK does as a result create improvements? No: plenty of these attempted changes will fail -- some badly -- and hopefully we'll all learn from those mistakes. But there will certainly also be policy and procedural changes that result in unquestionable improvements that are re-usable elsewhere. (disclaimer/context: I believe that Brexit was a mistake in economic and political terms, but that the UK could eventually rejoin the EU if-and/or-when the upsides are clearer to people, and that it's an opportunity to learn)
  - not2b 4y ago
    Alternatively, parts of the UK could break off and rejoin the EU (e.g. Scotland). I can't predict whether this will happen or not.
    - pavlov 4y ago
      Also the unification of Ireland might be closer than ever. Sinn Fein, the former political wing of the IRA, won elections in North Ireland yesterday: https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/northern-ireland-poised-watershed-election-result-counting-begins-2022-05-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/northern-ireland-poised-wat... I don't pretend to be an expert on Irish politics. It's unclear to me whether the Republic really even wants North Ireland given its lackluster economy. Maybe it's easier to have London keep sending billions there.
      - VictorPath 4y ago
_Microft 4y ago
Sure, why not - as long as they do not ask for special treatment?
- masklinn 4y ago
  > as long as they do not ask for special treatment? They certainly could ask. They wouldn't get it because at this point they have negative leverage and I'd assume Brussels is at best mildly irritated by Downing Street.
  - _Microft 4y ago
    The implied joke was that this would have been another advantage that they squandered with Brexit because they did get special treatment before leaving.

blibble 4y ago

using the massive temporary increase in covid spending to try to assert that the Conservatives are now suddenly into big spending seems like a stretch Boris didn't necessarily like big spending... he had to or the economy would have collapsed their sources are... somewhat europhile too (ex-EU commissioner, pro-EU think tank, and former EU diplomat)

avianlyric 4y ago
> Boris didn't necessarily like big spending... Not sure that’s true. One of the first things Boris did after Brexit was start pushing hard on infrastructure spending with projects like HS2 (already on the books, but Boris explicitly threw his weight behind it, and got rid of objectors) and “levelling up” the north. Think Boris realised that all those labour voters that voted for him wouldn’t hang around unless he substantially improved the quality of life outside of London. Big infrastructure projects are the obvious path to take. Boris also increased business rates as well, along with being caught saying “fuck business”. Boris isn’t your standard conservative, looking for economic stability or growth. He’s only interested in what keeps him in Number 10. And big spending up North looked like a pretty good strategy. Who cares about ROI for the tax payer, when it’s gonna keep him in office? Personally think the spending is/was a good thing on the whole. But I really don’t like Boris, and his complete lack of any conviction, except his conviction of reminding in Number 10.
- Bellend 4y ago
  Not looking for an argument, what did "levelling up" mean?
  - incone123 4y ago
    I think it was about regions further from London becoming more prosperous, partly through development of transport links and broadband internet
  - lifeisstillgood 4y ago
    There is actually a minister for "levelling up" - Michael Gove IIRR and he is making some hay with it. The idea is that Britain is massively massively centered around London Metro Area. And the regions suffer lack of investment, brain drain, lack of jobs as a result. The idea is to "level up" the rest of the UK to London levels (seen as a big Brexit lodestone) However, 1. no extra actual money seems to be allocated to it, 2. it's not quite clear how to do it. 30 years ago the surprisingly prescient comedy show Yes Prime Minister had a similar idea, to move the Army up North and spark new job creation. It would take massive scale action to do this - tax incentives, infrastructure, etc. It's worth noting that we have to spend vast vast sums to become climate neutral (revamp most housing infrastructure to be heat efficient, get rid gas boilers, replace the car fleet, move to vegetarian diets). So we could just spend that money in a different part of the country. And it's also worth pointing out that only Germany has this kind of levelled society - mostly because for 50 years Berlin was a no go area so Hamburg and other cities got an industry each (Frankfurt got finance etc). Paris, Rome, Madrid all have similar "Black Hole" status

jeisc 4y ago

nobody appreciates the good parts of something until they are gone then the bad parts don't seem so bad anymore

skippyboxedhero 4y ago
Polling data suggests otherwise. Support for re-joining has dropped like a stone. I voted Remain, and that decision makes little sense in retrospect (not none, it was just a lot of the fearmongering turned out to be false). The bad parts of the EU are far more evident now we are out of it. To most Brits...the EU just seems a bit mad (and did before btw, it was just that many Brits believed the EU would change). I don't think any Brits know what "the good parts" are (again, this was true before 2016 too, we weren't in the EU for "the good parts"...there weren't any for Britain, we didn't need to shed guilt like Germany, we didn't need to use trade barriers to gain competitiveness like Italy or Spain, we didn't need to use to elevate our global profile like France). Ofc, the points made in the article are nonsensical...but it is the Economist. Saying that Ukraine has demonstrated the importance of Europe is...comic. The economic points are totally illogical...look at Europe's banks, look at the UK's banks, monetary policy, the values are just totally different.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  What are the evidently bad parts of EU that you come to realize once out? I'm also puzzled by your claim that support for re-join has dropped because as it happens, it actually didn't change much and the latest polls suggest that re-join has the lead[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_Kingdom_rejoining_the_European_Union_(2020–present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_...
  - thinkingemote 4y ago
    Not who you are replying to, one little heard "worsening EU" factor I have read is the rise of far right political parties in most EU states. The implication is that the EU might be controlled by the very problematic far right, and so the UK outside of it would be insulated from any issues. I don't think we've seen any EU wide political effects because of the rise of the far right in Europe. But I find the idea an interesting one that's being aired by some in the UK. Yes, Europe is seeing the hard right and populism growing but no it's not a problem yet at the continent level as far as I know.

heythere22 4y ago

https://archive.ph/o58hG https://archive.ph/o58hG

vanderZwan 4y ago

The idea that the EU imposes massive amounts of red tape when no other instition I know of has done more to reduce it in the last century is just absolutely mindboggling to me. Is it so hard to grasp that standardizing regulations among dozens of countries with the explicit goals of making it easier to trade, travel, work and live in foreign countries, inevitably leads to reduced red tape?

thaway2839 4y ago
Exactly this. The EU may be the greatest red tape destroyer ever created. The single market has led to many many landfills not being filled due to the paper that trade before the single market would have generated.
- blibble 4y ago
  just ignore the 200 cookie warnings every citizen sees per day
  - dijit 4y ago
    Those cookie warnings are intentionally annoying, it's malicious compliance in the hopes that people get bored of them and click ok. If an annoying cookie pop-up does not close (with an opt out) in 2 clicks, it's illegal; that's part of GDPR because of this malicious compliance. (making people click each option individually).
  - throw0101a 4y ago
    > just ignore the 200 cookie warnings every citizen sees per day Would you rather be ignorant of the fact that you're being tracked with 200 cookies? Why is it the EU's fault that companies have so much tracking? Perhaps you should complain to the companies that are sending you the cookies and not the EU that's simply bringing to light a shady business practice.
    - Markoff 4y ago
      >Would you rather be ignorant of the fact that you're being tracked with 200 cookies? Yes? I know I'm tracked and I know I can do nothing about it besides accepting the annoying cookie warning, so it's pretty much meaningless unless there is option Reject All. If you must always allow at least "essential" cookies them it's while warning meaningless. Either show me no warning or give me Reject all button, nothing in between, otherwise it just shows your incompetence to solve the problem. It's as meaningful as permanent sign "There is traffic jam on this road", though that sign one would be less annoying. I always loved in some subway system in Asia regular PSA "There were pickpocketers detected in subway system", really helpful... Dunno whether it was India or HK or somewhere.

rossdavidh 4y ago

"Some observers hope that working with European allies on Ukraine could presage a mending of fences with the EU. Peter Mandelson, another former British EU commissioner, noted at a recent CER seminar that Ukraine had shattered the British illusion that it could turn its back on Europe when it comes to security, though he added that it would take a new prime minister to accept this obvious conclusion..." This seems like an odd statement to me. I was not aware of any UK push to diverge from NATO, only the EU, and NATO is far more involved in security affairs than the EU. In fact, the UK spends more (as a % of GDP) on security than almost any other western European economy; only France comes close.