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Issue: Feeling bad after interaction with OSS developer at <BIG COMPANY>. Steps to reproduce: 1) Report a bug. 2) Get called dumb by developers at <BIG COMPA

Issue: Feeling bad after interaction with OSS developer at <BIG COMPANY>. Steps to reproduce: 1) Report a bug. 2) Get called dumb by developers at <BIG COMPANY>. 3) Demonstrate that it is, in fact, a bug with examples, test cases, and offer a potential fix/PR. 4) Hear that it’s being “handled internally”. 5) Wait for the blog post re-iterating what they called dumb, talking about how great the team is that fixed it, and see your demonstration code or test cases in the linked commit. 6) Why are you still here? No, you’re not going to be credited, this is going in my promotion packet. I’ve lost count of the times I’ve seen this over the past 20 years. Whenever I’m about to report a bug in a <BIG COMPANY> project I smile to my girlfriend and say “OK, I’m going to go get called dumb.”

Longhanks 4y ago
And the Windows Terminal team reeks of this. There's so many blog posts saying look, we're so smart because they're reimplementing something both Linux and macOS had for *years*, as if the whole world of CLI was waiting for their savior.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  When CMD is your benchmark... (In all fairness, PowerShell has a lot of good ideas)
  - stjohnswarts 4y ago
    Yeah it is far superior to cmd. But I mean cmd was frozen in the 90s it seems anyway.
  - Narishma 4y ago
    cmd is a shell. The old terminal is called conhost I think.
    - ethbr0 4y ago
      I figured I'd get this from someone. ;) I'm approximating that 99% of people who use Windows use default terminals for built-in legacy shells, and thus effectively analogous terminology. You're correct though!
  - thaway2839 4y ago
    I get the feeling that there's a bunch of people working for, or being paid by, Microsoft who really love functional programming. Some of Microsoft's best outputs comes from those teams/folks. It could just be a coincidence/confirmation bias, so I wonder if there's actually something to that.
    - vorpalhex 4y ago
      If you care about programming enough to really have preferences on things like functional or OO or other kinds of "deep" topics, then you're invested.
    - mananaysiempre 4y ago
      > I get the feeling that there's a bunch of people working for, or being paid by, Microsoft who really love functional programming. Simon Peyton Jones, Simon Marlow, Edward Kmett, Conal Elliott, and I’m sure a lot of other people with fundamental contributions to the Haskell ecosystem who I can’t remember offhand all work or previously worked at Microsoft Research, so that part is just straightforwardly true.
  - kevinmgranger 4y ago
    Are PowerShell and Windows Terminal the same team?
- miiiiiike 4y ago
  I can’t speak to that. I’ve pretty much Linux only since 1999, but, of the times I’ve used PowerShell, I’ve like it.
  - juki 4y ago
    Windows Terminal is a separate project from PowerShell. It's just a terminal that you can use with different shells (including PowerShell). I have no idea what their blog posts are saying, but at least I've always found it pretty nice.
    - behnamoh 4y ago
      PS has been pretty slow though. I’ve liked the fact that you can pipe objects, but it seems to slow down the startup time of the shell.
      - juki 4y ago
        True, the slow startup is annoying (especially if you load modules in your profile), but overall I still think it's better than the alternatives. I usually just keep a terminal window always open.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - rascul 4y ago
    PowerShell is available for Linux if you want to use it more without Windows.
- anothernewdude 4y ago
  The whole world of CLI has been using a poor open source reimplementation of linux subsystems on windows for decades.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  > There's so many blog posts saying look, we're so smart Have you read Casey's twitter feed? The man routinely goes into long twitter thread rants about how stupid everyone else is. His favorite target seems to be...drumroll please...large corporation software teams.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    > rants about how stupid everyone else is. > His favorite target seems to be...drumroll please...large corporation software teams. To be fair, that's... not unreasonable. I've thought unkind things about large corporate software teams while I was working at said large corp.
  - phaistra 4y ago
    > rants about how stupid everyone else is. > His favorite target seems to be...drumroll please...large corporation software teams. I missed the part where he is wrong.
    - trapnii 4y ago
      the part where "he" is wrong, is the part where he tells everyone that his reference software can be compared to a real terminal. You cannot compare shoes with towels, nor cats with a TV. The tiling renderer "he" wrote as part of the reference software to demo isn't that bad as a product (to some degree), but that piece of software is garbage, as it has zero use. And almost none of the techniques "he" brags about can be applied to a real terminal. I mean, I like being educated. But so far, noone of the internet fanboys "he" has, has so far ever provided a real product out of his reference software. Admitted, some people tried (just look around), but they all failed. I wonder why. Do you know it?
      - dmitriid 4y ago
        > the part where "he" is wrong, is the part where he tells everyone that his reference software can be compared to a real terminal He very clearly states that his implementation is a terminal renderer. > And almost none of the techniques "he" brags about can be applied to a real terminal Elsewhere one of the people from the screenshots says "we implemented the same approach" because these techniques can be and have been applied. Both in Windows Terminal and, as I understand it, in every single modern terminal emulator.
- mananaysiempre 4y ago
  > There's so many blog posts saying look, we're so smart because they're reimplementing something both Linux and macOS had for years It doesn’t really read like that for me, more of a look at this cool thing we made with an undercurrent of fucking finally, and that seems entirely fair.
- digisign 4y ago
  s/years/multiple decades/
palisade 4y ago
I've pointed out flaws to the dev team at MS they were pretty quick about acknowledging it and fixing the problem. There were some showstoppers in the media encoders early on when they were developing win10. The only thing they asked is that I prove the issue was real and as soon as I did they were on top of it. They were also pretty quick and helpful with answering any question I had. I guess it depends on what team you get ahold of. Or, maybe how you ask the questions. I always try to be polite and patient, which is hard to do when you're in a time crunch. They really were trying to push azure hard in a situation that didn't require it. It was odd at the time. I chalked it up to the team evangelizing a new feature that they knew was going to rake in money, so they were required to bring it up. I remember it was funny and a little annoying to have to keep saying no... now let's get back on topic. But, they never insulted me. It was a very professional experience. Sad to hear this kind of thing is happening now.
- trapnii 4y ago
  Reading your post feels good, man. But your last sentence kind of bothers me. Why do you feel they are insulting you now? I think, if at all, someone else was, and kept doing, and still is, insulting them instead. I'm just trying to understand here, thanks. :)
  - palisade 4y ago
    In the last paragraph I indicated that they never insulted me. The very last sentence is referring to the article and that I'm sad to hear that this is the case now for others. When I personally interacted with Microsoft that wasn't the situation I had at all. I had a good experience.
KennyBlanken 4y ago
- bfgoodrich 4y ago
  https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362 The original discussion. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way the Casey individual approaches it. At all. And yes it is simple. If your basic text terminal gets 30 FPS on modern hardware (or worse), you have started with a bad foundation. That is just gross. The NYT commentary is a bit hilarious as you see that claim on here daily, repeatedly.
  - trapnii 4y ago
    > And yes it is simple. I like. Please submit a PR and make Windows Terminal as fast as refterm, trivially speaking, 2GB/s, no slower than the unoptimized refterm. Just to quote you: simple. :-D
    - bfgoodrich 4y ago
  - jodrellblank 4y ago
    nothing wrong? > "Can you be more specific here about what you are talking about? While text output can be "hard", for some not particularly hard definition of "hard"" Insulting, dismissive, rude. > "to me that a great deal of improvement could be made to the performance of the product if one were so inclined." After someone said they'd been working on improving performance for 2 years and engaging in good faith with many detailed replies, someone who said they were dependent on changes in the OS which they couldn't make; to then insinuate that they just "weren't inclined" to make improvements is rude. > "When we're at the stage when something that can be implemented in a weekend is described as "a doctoral research project", and then I am accused of "impugning the reader" for describing something as simple that is extremely simple, we're done. Consider the bug report closed." Closing a bug report about performance which affects all users, an issue with many detailed comments from many people, because he's taken offense? And at something which was far less rude than the things he said to them in the same discussion? Prima-donna bullshit.
haberman 4y ago
I think this goes both ways. As a developer at a big company, I've definitely been called dumb or obstinate on issue trackers for not prioritizing certain feature requests, or for not moving forward with a specific design despite explaining why that design is incompatible with other requirements.

Longhanks 4y ago

And the Windows Terminal team reeks of this. There's so many blog posts saying look, we're so smart because they're reimplementing something both Linux and macOS had for *years*, as if the whole world of CLI was waiting for their savior.

ethbr0 4y ago
When CMD is your benchmark... (In all fairness, PowerShell has a lot of good ideas)
- stjohnswarts 4y ago
  Yeah it is far superior to cmd. But I mean cmd was frozen in the 90s it seems anyway.
- Narishma 4y ago
  cmd is a shell. The old terminal is called conhost I think.
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    I figured I'd get this from someone. ;) I'm approximating that 99% of people who use Windows use default terminals for built-in legacy shells, and thus effectively analogous terminology. You're correct though!
- thaway2839 4y ago
  I get the feeling that there's a bunch of people working for, or being paid by, Microsoft who really love functional programming. Some of Microsoft's best outputs comes from those teams/folks. It could just be a coincidence/confirmation bias, so I wonder if there's actually something to that.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    If you care about programming enough to really have preferences on things like functional or OO or other kinds of "deep" topics, then you're invested.
  - mananaysiempre 4y ago
    > I get the feeling that there's a bunch of people working for, or being paid by, Microsoft who really love functional programming. Simon Peyton Jones, Simon Marlow, Edward Kmett, Conal Elliott, and I’m sure a lot of other people with fundamental contributions to the Haskell ecosystem who I can’t remember offhand all work or previously worked at Microsoft Research, so that part is just straightforwardly true.
- kevinmgranger 4y ago
  Are PowerShell and Windows Terminal the same team?
miiiiiike 4y ago
I can’t speak to that. I’ve pretty much Linux only since 1999, but, of the times I’ve used PowerShell, I’ve like it.
- juki 4y ago
  Windows Terminal is a separate project from PowerShell. It's just a terminal that you can use with different shells (including PowerShell). I have no idea what their blog posts are saying, but at least I've always found it pretty nice.
  - behnamoh 4y ago
    PS has been pretty slow though. I’ve liked the fact that you can pipe objects, but it seems to slow down the startup time of the shell.
    - juki 4y ago
      True, the slow startup is annoying (especially if you load modules in your profile), but overall I still think it's better than the alternatives. I usually just keep a terminal window always open.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- rascul 4y ago
  PowerShell is available for Linux if you want to use it more without Windows.
anothernewdude 4y ago
The whole world of CLI has been using a poor open source reimplementation of linux subsystems on windows for decades.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
KennyBlanken 4y ago
> There's so many blog posts saying look, we're so smart Have you read Casey's twitter feed? The man routinely goes into long twitter thread rants about how stupid everyone else is. His favorite target seems to be...drumroll please...large corporation software teams.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  > rants about how stupid everyone else is. > His favorite target seems to be...drumroll please...large corporation software teams. To be fair, that's... not unreasonable. I've thought unkind things about large corporate software teams while I was working at said large corp.
- phaistra 4y ago
  > rants about how stupid everyone else is. > His favorite target seems to be...drumroll please...large corporation software teams. I missed the part where he is wrong.
  - trapnii 4y ago
    the part where "he" is wrong, is the part where he tells everyone that his reference software can be compared to a real terminal. You cannot compare shoes with towels, nor cats with a TV. The tiling renderer "he" wrote as part of the reference software to demo isn't that bad as a product (to some degree), but that piece of software is garbage, as it has zero use. And almost none of the techniques "he" brags about can be applied to a real terminal. I mean, I like being educated. But so far, noone of the internet fanboys "he" has, has so far ever provided a real product out of his reference software. Admitted, some people tried (just look around), but they all failed. I wonder why. Do you know it?
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      > the part where "he" is wrong, is the part where he tells everyone that his reference software can be compared to a real terminal He very clearly states that his implementation is a terminal renderer. > And almost none of the techniques "he" brags about can be applied to a real terminal Elsewhere one of the people from the screenshots says "we implemented the same approach" because these techniques can be and have been applied. Both in Windows Terminal and, as I understand it, in every single modern terminal emulator.
mananaysiempre 4y ago
> There's so many blog posts saying look, we're so smart because they're reimplementing something both Linux and macOS had for years It doesn’t really read like that for me, more of a look at this cool thing we made with an undercurrent of fucking finally, and that seems entirely fair.
digisign 4y ago
s/years/multiple decades/

palisade 4y ago

I've pointed out flaws to the dev team at MS they were pretty quick about acknowledging it and fixing the problem. There were some showstoppers in the media encoders early on when they were developing win10. The only thing they asked is that I prove the issue was real and as soon as I did they were on top of it. They were also pretty quick and helpful with answering any question I had. I guess it depends on what team you get ahold of. Or, maybe how you ask the questions. I always try to be polite and patient, which is hard to do when you're in a time crunch. They really were trying to push azure hard in a situation that didn't require it. It was odd at the time. I chalked it up to the team evangelizing a new feature that they knew was going to rake in money, so they were required to bring it up. I remember it was funny and a little annoying to have to keep saying no... now let's get back on topic. But, they never insulted me. It was a very professional experience. Sad to hear this kind of thing is happening now.

trapnii 4y ago
Reading your post feels good, man. But your last sentence kind of bothers me. Why do you feel they are insulting you now? I think, if at all, someone else was, and kept doing, and still is, insulting them instead. I'm just trying to understand here, thanks. :)
- palisade 4y ago
  In the last paragraph I indicated that they never insulted me. The very last sentence is referring to the article and that I'm sad to hear that this is the case now for others. When I personally interacted with Microsoft that wasn't the situation I had at all. I had a good experience.

KennyBlanken 4y ago

bfgoodrich 4y ago
https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362 The original discussion. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way the Casey individual approaches it. At all. And yes it is simple. If your basic text terminal gets 30 FPS on modern hardware (or worse), you have started with a bad foundation. That is just gross. The NYT commentary is a bit hilarious as you see that claim on here daily, repeatedly.
- trapnii 4y ago
  > And yes it is simple. I like. Please submit a PR and make Windows Terminal as fast as refterm, trivially speaking, 2GB/s, no slower than the unoptimized refterm. Just to quote you: simple. :-D
  - bfgoodrich 4y ago
- jodrellblank 4y ago
  nothing wrong? > "Can you be more specific here about what you are talking about? While text output can be "hard", for some not particularly hard definition of "hard"" Insulting, dismissive, rude. > "to me that a great deal of improvement could be made to the performance of the product if one were so inclined." After someone said they'd been working on improving performance for 2 years and engaging in good faith with many detailed replies, someone who said they were dependent on changes in the OS which they couldn't make; to then insinuate that they just "weren't inclined" to make improvements is rude. > "When we're at the stage when something that can be implemented in a weekend is described as "a doctoral research project", and then I am accused of "impugning the reader" for describing something as simple that is extremely simple, we're done. Consider the bug report closed." Closing a bug report about performance which affects all users, an issue with many detailed comments from many people, because he's taken offense? And at something which was far less rude than the things he said to them in the same discussion? Prima-donna bullshit.

haberman 4y ago

I think this goes both ways. As a developer at a big company, I've definitely been called dumb or obstinate on issue trackers for not prioritizing certain feature requests, or for not moving forward with a specific design despite explaining why that design is incompatible with other requirements.