8 ms·
There’s no rule that you should be able to afford a house on a middle class income. In fact in many countries, particularly in Western Europe, it’s unimaginable
by oceanplexian 4y ago
There’s no rule that you should be able to afford a house on a middle class income. In fact in many countries, particularly in Western Europe, it’s unimaginable that you would be able to afford a detached, single family home on a middle class income. Lots of people in that situation will live in apartments, row houses, or condos for the rest of their lives.
- SturgeonsLaw 4y agoYou will live in the pod, you will eat the bugs, you will own nothing, and you will be happy
- angmarsbane 4y agoI would love to buy a duplex, rowhouse, townhome, 3 bedroom apartment or condo if they existed and were reasonable.
- AlchemistCamp 4y agoWestern Europe is both considerably more crowded and poorer than the US.
- mistrial9 4y agoDutch to you, to!
- wahern 4y agoTotal population / total land area is an irrelevant statistic for country comparison. By population-weighted density the United States isn't significantly less dense than Western Europe. Unfortunately, directly comparable, prepared numbers are difficult to come by. The 3 most memorable sources I've found are: * https://theconversation.com/think-your-country-is-crowded-these-maps-reveal-the-truth-about-population-density-across-europe-90345 https://theconversation.com/think-your-country-is-crowded-th... - Discusses (introduces?) the concept of "lived density" and provides graphs for Europe. I'm not sure how well the author was familiar with related work regarding population-weight density, which seems to be the more correct term. * https://ssrn.com/abstract=3119965 https://ssrn.com/abstract=3119965 - A low-level analytical discussion regarding population-weighted density as a metric. * https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.01167 https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.01167 - A COVID-19 pandemic-related paper which incidentally includes comparable population-weighted density metrics for both Western Europe and the United States. I haven't looked into things since 2018 (excepting taking note of the 2020 COVID-19 paper), but IIRC census.gov has some population-weighted density numbers somewhere based on MSA and census block (tract?) proximity. It's not easily comparable to available European statistics, but it might be a good place to start if you want to play around with U.S. density numbers. Maybe there have been better resources published since the above.
- lotsofpulp 4y agoMore and more Americans have been finding out how poor they are or are getting (relatively) in recent decades.
- Biologist123 4y agoThat’s a sweeping comparison. I’ve visited both and my take would be that Europeans have a higher standard of living than Americans. But that’s just a hunch, I’d be interested to see a breakdown by specific metric and class.
- AlchemistCamp 4y agoI'd take data over an anecdote or hunch. Specific breakdowns are harder to find, but top of line numbers are pretty easy to find in a minute on Google: https://datacommons.org/tools/timeline#place=country%2FUSA%2Ccountry%2FDEU%2Ccountry%2FFRA%2Ccountry%2FGBR&statsVar=Amount_EconomicActivity_GrossDomesticProduction_Nominal_PerCapita https://datacommons.org/tools/timeline#place=country%2FUSA%2...
- Biologist123 4y agoI’m not sure GDP is a reliable national wealth indicator in countries with very high levels of inequality and cost of living. Certainly not as a comparator. Plenty to google on that too. This isn’t a criticism of your point - more that we need a better set or metrics to evaluate “wealth”.
- sidlls 4y agoYou can't compare Western Europe to the US. Maybe to specific regions or super-urban areas, e.g., the LA to SD corridor or the Bay Area. In which case the two are comparable: there are few if any middle-class families in the bay area that own their homes except by inheritance or some other luck (gift, lottery). Even condos and other high-density housing are all but completely out of reach for all but the top 10% of income earners. And those condos are almost all studios or 1- or 2-bedroom units that are very tiny.
- babyshake 4y ago> there are few if any middle-class families in the bay area that own their homes except by inheritance or some other luck (gift, lottery) Plenty of middle class people bought nice homes they could afford in the bay area in the 90s. Although I suppose you could consider this "luck".
- selectodude 4y agoOr a different definition of “middle class”.
- JumpCrisscross 4y agoThe Bay Area wasn’t the economic centre it is now, then. It was closer to a boomtown, and even that effect was constrained.
- refurb 4y agoAnd plenty of middle class families bought homes in Detroit in the 1950's that nobody wants any more and are either abandoned or torn down long ago. I suppose you could consider this "bad luck".
- tomc1985 4y agoMaybe there should be? Maybe not single-family detached homes, but people need to own something
- rsync 4y ago"... there are few if any middle-class families in the bay area that own their homes except by inheritance or some other luck ..." This is a ridiculous statement. There are plenty of middle class (by Bay Area standards) folks who have bought houses in Fremont and San Pablo and San Leandro and Hayward. In fact, even in Marin there are parts of Novato and weird pockets of West Marin (Forest Knolls ?) where this was, and continues to be, done. They are boring places and middle class folks working boring jobs have purchased homes there year in and year out for the past 25 years. Yes, they had to make choices and sacrifice some things for other things in order to do this. Perhaps the ability to do that is comparable to a lottery win ?
- t-writescode 4y agoSorry, but isn’t that part of the definition of middle class?
- oicU00 4y agoDon’t forget to mention they still have full health coverage in the EU. It’s not possible to afford housing or robust healthcare in the US. Keep in mind there’s no rule we have to tolerate either. Imagine being a teenager in the US, having just seen how essential workers are treated, knowing in all likelihood your future is an “essential worker”. Then watch Congress scapegoat Facebook.
- pcmoney 4y ago“Full health coverage” according to all my EU and especially British friends I would still be on a waitlist for a surgery I had 2+ years ago.
- oicU00 4y agoThey could lobby their elected officials to spend more on staff, and facilities. But you’re right, you’ve put me off on the whole idea. Good effort. There’s no way around artificial scarcity.
- digitaltrees 4y agoZombie argument. This has been show to be inaccurate numerous times.
- seizethegdgap 4y agoI'm waiting 4 months to see my GP for a physical in Wisconsin.
- chrisseaton 4y agoIn Europe they don’t even normally have physicals! The NHS has never just checked up on me like that - they just couldn’t afford to do it.
- AftHurrahWinch 4y agoNHS Health Check is the equivalent of the Medicare Annual Wellness Visit. It's recommended every five years, starting at age 40, for people without pre-existing conditions. For people with pre-existing conditions it begins at a younger age and is recommended more frequently, based on the determination of your GP Surgery. You should get your first invitation to an NHS Health Check around the time of your 40th birthday. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/nhs-health-check/what-is-an-nhs-health-check-new/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/nhs-health-check/what-is-an-nh...
- tristor 4y ago> There’s no rule that you should be able to afford a house on a middle class income Here in the US, if one was asked to define “middle class” from a lifestyle perspective, probably the first thing that comes to mind is “homeowner.” I don’t think it’s possible to separate home ownership from class distinctions in the US social strata. Case in point, home ownership rate has remained largely stable for decades at around 65% of the population. That’s despite incomes being more varied in relation to actual value over time.
- galangalalgol 4y agoI was told that middle class in the US is the class that owns tools that they use to augment or repair their home, whether owned or rented. Poorer and you don't have time between jobs to do it or the spare income for the tools, so it doesn't get done. Wealthier, and you just hire it done, because it isn't worth your labor rate.
- tristor 4y agoThat’s an interesting take. It sounds intuitively correct, other than the part about “owned or rented”. Generally speaking in the US, the one major advantage to renting is it’s the landlords responsibility to take care pf the property, and on the flip side you are usually not allowed to modify or augment it in any way. So I’d say if you extended it to incorporate that understanding, it’s pretty accurate.
- sass_muffin 4y agoWestern Europe is also way smaller than the united states, so I'm not sure how apt this comparison is.
- funman7 4y agoMost of those cities have a lot more density. They were designed before cars existed. I wonder what a fresh piece of earth chopped up and designed for the future would look like economically.
- Aeolun 4y agoRow houses in any marginally desired area in western Europe easily go for half a million now. That’s firmly out of reach of the middle class.
- pjmorris 4y ago> There’s no rule that you should be able to afford a house on a middle class income. This isn't really an ownership issue, it is an occupancy issue. Monthly rent needs to cover the expenses of a property including any mortgage, property taxes, etc as well as maintenance, so rents wind up tracking house prices. If you can't house the middle class, a) they're not really middle class and b) you have a societal problem.