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> academia has managed to maintain its privileged role in society despite contributing less and less actual value What is the basis for these strange claims, h

> academia has managed to maintain its privileged role in society despite contributing less and less actual value What is the basis for these strange claims, how is it priviliged if my University proffesor makes less than some of his graduates with 3 years of experience? Whu do you think they contribute less, did physicists start slacking? What statistics demonstrates this?

lazide 5y ago
Why would the professor be willing to stay in such a position without getting more in other ways (aka privilege, prestige, ability to not do certain things, do certain other things, etc.)? If it’s the same for their graduates but they make 3x, then what forces are keeping them there? For some it’s idealism - but few tenured professors are idealists in my experience.
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  First, they don't. There's a HUGE CS faculty shortage. CS faculty positions outside of R1 are insanely hard to fill and the average quality of faculty tends to be quite low. Some lower tier colleges and universities will hire tenure track faculty out of online masters programs with no teaching experience. Even then, faculty searches regularly fail. The bar is rock bottom. (This isn't meant as a bias against online programs; the salient point is that if your masters was online then you almost certainly have zero in-person teaching experience even as a TA.) Second, most people aren't rational economic actors and even those who are have a myriad of objective functions. Some common reasons people stay when they could get much higher paying and lower stress jobs: 1. Immigration. 2. Work life balance. Not unique to academia, btw. I know ex-FAANG SWEs who make $70K/yr because they can get the job done in one or two days a week from a van and want to spend most of their life in the mountains. 3. Immigration. 4. Some people actually enjoy teaching and view it as a life calling. 5. Immigration. 6. Ageism. A 50 year old who spent 20 years in academia is going to have a hard time getting back into industry.
  - lazide 5y ago
    So I think the answer is often ‘well, they often can’t go and get 3x the salary’? At least pragmatically, compared to theoretically?
    - throwawaygh 5y ago
      "First, they don't" is the top-most answer. Also, the multiple is closer to 10x for strong faculty candidates if we're talking about teaching-focused roles. A lower-tier college/university (non phd granting) will offer 60K - 80K for a full-time faculty position. A PhD with 5-10 years of industry experience will make >500K if they are maximizing for income.
hammock 5y ago
> how is it priviliged if my University proffesor makes less than some of his graduates with 3 years of experience? Tenure and pensions have significant off-book value. There is also social capital to consider
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  Tenured faculty can be fired with cause. My wife is a professor. I can assure you that her pension options were not good.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
Datenstrom 5y ago
Anecdote here, but I think it speaks to academia holding a privileged role in society and contributing little (or damage in this case) when I have met multiple people with degrees (but from a degree mill) who make > $200k as software engineers and can barely code fizz buzz and cannot even properly package a cli tool. Although this is a specific problem with degree mills not representative of all schools.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  They are employed as software developers, it speaks to software developers holding a priviliged role in society. If the privilidge was in academia, they would have stayed where the privilidge is
- the_only_law 5y ago
  > Although this is a specific problem with degree mills not representative of all schools. Eh I’ve seen idiots with a 4 year degree from a state school.
  - akhmatova 5y ago
    And I've seen idiots with a 4 year degree from your school.
    - the_only_law 5y ago
      That’s impressive given I never went.
      - akhmatova 5y ago
        From your school of thought, shall we say. The singling out of state school graduates in that missive did seem rather strange (and contrary to observation).
NikolaNovak 5y ago
>>how is it priviliged if my University proffesor makes less than some of his graduates with 3 years of experience? Not the OP, but the term "Privileged" has many meanings. FWIW, "monetary compensation" would not necessarily be in the top 3 my mind jumps to. Some thoughts: * There's the privilege of job security * Related privilege of potentially higher relative freedom of actions or higher flexibility, work life balance, etc * There's societal privilege and respect given to the profession (heck, they even share a root word:) But I imagine "Privileged role in society" was meant more broadly in that in many fields/situations, or for many people, academia/professors/university are seen as guardians / best source of facts / models / truth / knowledge. And that is a tremendously privileged role, with tremendous influence which I believe OP indicates is no longer deserved or earned.
lisper 5y ago
Societal privilege is not measured in terms of the net income of the people who hold the privilege, it is measured in the influence those people have over the workings of society. For example: particle physics commands huge budgets despite having produced nothing of value for the last 50 years. It commands these huge budgets because particle physicists have societal privilege. When a particle physicist says that society should write a check for billions of euros to build the LHC, society does it. That is societal privilege.
- rimunroe 5y ago
  > particle physics commands huge budgets despite having produced nothing of value for the last 50 years The World Wide Web on which you posted your comment was invented at a particle physics lab 33 years ago.
- formerkrogemp 5y ago
  > Societal privilege is not measured in terms of the net income of the people who hold the privilege, it is measured in the influence those people have over the workings of society. For example: the military industrial complex commands huge budgets despite having produced nothing of value for the last 50 years. It commands these huge budgets because generals, senators, and admirals have societal privilege. When a general, senator, and CEO say that society should write a check for billions of euros to build the F-35 or blow up some children, society does it. That is societal privilege.
  - 7speter 5y ago
    > For example: the military industrial complex commands huge budgets despite having produced nothing of value for the last 50 years. I think some Ukrainians using javelin anti tank missiles would like to have a word with you…
    - formerkrogemp 5y ago
      A bunch of dead kids in Yemen, Afghanistan, and Iraq would like a word. Oh, they can't talk anymore. Our military has never been about spreading and protecting democracy.
marcosdumay 5y ago
From what I get from the GP, the privilege is being able to get a salary without caring about his activity that adds the most value for society. Given how the academic careers are structured, I do think "privilege" is a very bad word to use here. It's no more of a privilege than working most of your time documenting why you should get a promotion on Google like people were discussing yesterday. But it's one of the many very real problems academia has nowadays.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  So the most priviged people in the world are telemarketers, casino pitbosses, High-frequency traders and developers working on spyware? There are many careers that produce not just zero, but negative value to society, and academia is nowhere near the top of that list. Also, have you seen what professors have to fill out to get a grant to fund their research?
- HWR_14 5y ago
  > the privilege is being able to get a salary without caring about his activity that adds the most value for society. I'm not aware of almost anyone except for academics that prioritize maximizing societal good. I guess in addition to teachers, firefighters and librarians as well. Certainly I doubt anyone on this board does that.
  - marcosdumay 5y ago
    What? Most professionals have to do the task that brings the most value if they want to make a living. Teachers so teach, firefighters do fight fires when those appear, and librarians do organize books. They don't get to not pay attention to those tasks and still be successful.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      > Most professionals have to do the task that brings the most value if they want to make a living. The comment was "worry about bringing the most value to society". And you think that's what pretty much anyone does? Finance, ad-tech, real-estate flippers, and numerous others may not even add any value. Others are all about internalizing profit and externalizing costs. At the very least, "bringing value so society" is a tertiary goal for most people. I choose a few people who could be making more doing something else. I'm sure, some people who work at nonprofits could also make more in a different field. But those are the only people I've seen worry about bringing value to society.
darioush 5y ago
The main privilege of tenure is job security and sabbaticals. Also gives you access to advisory positions (which pay well, and often in equity), and advantage to recruit very talented people into your own startup. Others may enjoy the privilege of ending up on administrative committees, adding to their job security (eg, post retirement).
akhmatova 5y ago
How is it priviliged if my University proffesor makes less than some of his graduates with 3 years of experience? Because there are other metrics for respect (and privilege) than simply the salary one makes. For example: the "privilege" of being able to, at least in theory, devote one's skills and brain power to a higher purpose (curing cancer, say). Or at least to what one actually wants to do. Rather than the basically random stuff (and sometimes dark patterns) that most industrial types have to devote their intellectual resources to.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  Real privilidge is measurable - Men used to make more money for the same job, black people were less likely to get the job, they had worse health outcomes, worse mental health, etc. This wishishy-washy stuff about purpose, maybe you have it all wrong? Maybe the people who can make a career out of damaging mental health of kids through dark patterns are the real priviliged group.

lazide 5y ago

Why would the professor be willing to stay in such a position without getting more in other ways (aka privilege, prestige, ability to not do certain things, do certain other things, etc.)? If it’s the same for their graduates but they make 3x, then what forces are keeping them there? For some it’s idealism - but few tenured professors are idealists in my experience.

throwawaygh 5y ago
First, they don't. There's a HUGE CS faculty shortage. CS faculty positions outside of R1 are insanely hard to fill and the average quality of faculty tends to be quite low. Some lower tier colleges and universities will hire tenure track faculty out of online masters programs with no teaching experience. Even then, faculty searches regularly fail. The bar is rock bottom. (This isn't meant as a bias against online programs; the salient point is that if your masters was online then you almost certainly have zero in-person teaching experience even as a TA.) Second, most people aren't rational economic actors and even those who are have a myriad of objective functions. Some common reasons people stay when they could get much higher paying and lower stress jobs: 1. Immigration. 2. Work life balance. Not unique to academia, btw. I know ex-FAANG SWEs who make $70K/yr because they can get the job done in one or two days a week from a van and want to spend most of their life in the mountains. 3. Immigration. 4. Some people actually enjoy teaching and view it as a life calling. 5. Immigration. 6. Ageism. A 50 year old who spent 20 years in academia is going to have a hard time getting back into industry.
- lazide 5y ago
  So I think the answer is often ‘well, they often can’t go and get 3x the salary’? At least pragmatically, compared to theoretically?
  - throwawaygh 5y ago
    "First, they don't" is the top-most answer. Also, the multiple is closer to 10x for strong faculty candidates if we're talking about teaching-focused roles. A lower-tier college/university (non phd granting) will offer 60K - 80K for a full-time faculty position. A PhD with 5-10 years of industry experience will make >500K if they are maximizing for income.

hammock 5y ago

> how is it priviliged if my University proffesor makes less than some of his graduates with 3 years of experience? Tenure and pensions have significant off-book value. There is also social capital to consider

UncleMeat 5y ago
Tenured faculty can be fired with cause. My wife is a professor. I can assure you that her pension options were not good.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

Datenstrom 5y ago

Anecdote here, but I think it speaks to academia holding a privileged role in society and contributing little (or damage in this case) when I have met multiple people with degrees (but from a degree mill) who make > $200k as software engineers and can barely code fizz buzz and cannot even properly package a cli tool. Although this is a specific problem with degree mills not representative of all schools.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago
They are employed as software developers, it speaks to software developers holding a priviliged role in society. If the privilidge was in academia, they would have stayed where the privilidge is
the_only_law 5y ago
> Although this is a specific problem with degree mills not representative of all schools. Eh I’ve seen idiots with a 4 year degree from a state school.
- akhmatova 5y ago
  And I've seen idiots with a 4 year degree from your school.
  - the_only_law 5y ago
    That’s impressive given I never went.
    - akhmatova 5y ago
      From your school of thought, shall we say. The singling out of state school graduates in that missive did seem rather strange (and contrary to observation).

NikolaNovak 5y ago

>>how is it priviliged if my University proffesor makes less than some of his graduates with 3 years of experience? Not the OP, but the term "Privileged" has many meanings. FWIW, "monetary compensation" would not necessarily be in the top 3 my mind jumps to. Some thoughts: * There's the privilege of job security * Related privilege of potentially higher relative freedom of actions or higher flexibility, work life balance, etc * There's societal privilege and respect given to the profession (heck, they even share a root word:) But I imagine "Privileged role in society" was meant more broadly in that in many fields/situations, or for many people, academia/professors/university are seen as guardians / best source of facts / models / truth / knowledge. And that is a tremendously privileged role, with tremendous influence which I believe OP indicates is no longer deserved or earned.

lisper 5y ago

Societal privilege is not measured in terms of the net income of the people who hold the privilege, it is measured in the influence those people have over the workings of society. For example: particle physics commands huge budgets despite having produced nothing of value for the last 50 years. It commands these huge budgets because particle physicists have societal privilege. When a particle physicist says that society should write a check for billions of euros to build the LHC, society does it. That is societal privilege.

rimunroe 5y ago
> particle physics commands huge budgets despite having produced nothing of value for the last 50 years The World Wide Web on which you posted your comment was invented at a particle physics lab 33 years ago.
formerkrogemp 5y ago
> Societal privilege is not measured in terms of the net income of the people who hold the privilege, it is measured in the influence those people have over the workings of society. For example: the military industrial complex commands huge budgets despite having produced nothing of value for the last 50 years. It commands these huge budgets because generals, senators, and admirals have societal privilege. When a general, senator, and CEO say that society should write a check for billions of euros to build the F-35 or blow up some children, society does it. That is societal privilege.
- 7speter 5y ago
  > For example: the military industrial complex commands huge budgets despite having produced nothing of value for the last 50 years. I think some Ukrainians using javelin anti tank missiles would like to have a word with you…
  - formerkrogemp 5y ago
    A bunch of dead kids in Yemen, Afghanistan, and Iraq would like a word. Oh, they can't talk anymore. Our military has never been about spreading and protecting democracy.

marcosdumay 5y ago

From what I get from the GP, the privilege is being able to get a salary without caring about his activity that adds the most value for society. Given how the academic careers are structured, I do think "privilege" is a very bad word to use here. It's no more of a privilege than working most of your time documenting why you should get a promotion on Google like people were discussing yesterday. But it's one of the many very real problems academia has nowadays.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago
So the most priviged people in the world are telemarketers, casino pitbosses, High-frequency traders and developers working on spyware? There are many careers that produce not just zero, but negative value to society, and academia is nowhere near the top of that list. Also, have you seen what professors have to fill out to get a grant to fund their research?
HWR_14 5y ago
> the privilege is being able to get a salary without caring about his activity that adds the most value for society. I'm not aware of almost anyone except for academics that prioritize maximizing societal good. I guess in addition to teachers, firefighters and librarians as well. Certainly I doubt anyone on this board does that.
- marcosdumay 5y ago
  What? Most professionals have to do the task that brings the most value if they want to make a living. Teachers so teach, firefighters do fight fires when those appear, and librarians do organize books. They don't get to not pay attention to those tasks and still be successful.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    > Most professionals have to do the task that brings the most value if they want to make a living. The comment was "worry about bringing the most value to society". And you think that's what pretty much anyone does? Finance, ad-tech, real-estate flippers, and numerous others may not even add any value. Others are all about internalizing profit and externalizing costs. At the very least, "bringing value so society" is a tertiary goal for most people. I choose a few people who could be making more doing something else. I'm sure, some people who work at nonprofits could also make more in a different field. But those are the only people I've seen worry about bringing value to society.

darioush 5y ago

The main privilege of tenure is job security and sabbaticals. Also gives you access to advisory positions (which pay well, and often in equity), and advantage to recruit very talented people into your own startup. Others may enjoy the privilege of ending up on administrative committees, adding to their job security (eg, post retirement).

akhmatova 5y ago

How is it priviliged if my University proffesor makes less than some of his graduates with 3 years of experience? Because there are other metrics for respect (and privilege) than simply the salary one makes. For example: the "privilege" of being able to, at least in theory, devote one's skills and brain power to a higher purpose (curing cancer, say). Or at least to what one actually wants to do. Rather than the basically random stuff (and sometimes dark patterns) that most industrial types have to devote their intellectual resources to.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago
Real privilidge is measurable - Men used to make more money for the same job, black people were less likely to get the job, they had worse health outcomes, worse mental health, etc. This wishishy-washy stuff about purpose, maybe you have it all wrong? Maybe the people who can make a career out of damaging mental health of kids through dark patterns are the real priviliged group.